Mobility, Downtown & Housing

Present: Robert Geddes, Chair. Robert Goldsmith, Attorney for The Princeton Partnership

Mobility Table: Carlos Rodriques, Chair. Robert Geddes, Scribe. Louis Slee, Robert Durkee; George Cody; Ralph Widner; April Gerusso; Chip Crider; Dan Haughton; Alice Bishop; Dan Rappoport; Toni Nielson; Janet Heroux; Stephanie Charney; B Lauf, Bob Goldsmith

Housing Table: David Kinsey, Chair. Hendricks Davis, Sheldon Sturges, Scribe. Miguel Centeno, Jim Floyd, Kristin Appelget, Barrie Royce, Alan Hegedus, Ron Nielsen, Yan Bennett

Downtown Table: Jim Constantine, Chair. Peter Kann, Scribe. Joshua Zinder, Ron Levine, Raoul Momo, Jim Morrison, Mark Censits, Kevin Wilkes, David Schure, Allan Kehrt, Wanda Gunning, Michael Floyd, Susan Hockaday, Fran Parker, Peter Morgan, Bob Goldsmith

The Mobility Table

Carlos: Good morning everybody. Thank you for coming. Why don’t we spend a few minute introducing ourselves. I’m Carlos Rodriques, NJ Director of the Regional Plan Association which is the nation’s oldest independent planning organization and I am also the Zoning Board Chair in the Township which is sort of a crown of thorns. [laughter]

Others at table: I am Bob Durkee at the University; I am Rob Widner, I sit on the Borough’s Traffic & Transportation Committee. I am George Cody, I have accidently lived here for 57 years without ever having taught at the university! I am Robert Geddes

I am an architect. Fro 25 years, I was at this university. That one. Then at NYU. I am Chair of the Council of Princeton Future. I am Dan Rappoport. I was on the Princeton Bicycle and Pedestrian Safety Committee and I am on the Board of the Greater Philadelphia Bicycle Coalition. I am Toni Neilson. I live on Humbert Street. We moved there 25 years ago so that I could walk to the High School where I was a teacher. So I am someone who has really enjoyed…I don’t know whether you call it downtown or not…living here. I am Louis Slee. I am a writer. Retired. General Electric & RCA. I have lived in this area for about 50 years. I am April Geruso. I am a designer. I have lived in the Township for about 2 years now. I am Chip Crider. I live on Bank St. I am a graduate of the University. I have a business in the Township. I am interested in future transportation possibilities. Dan Haughton of the Township. I am on the School Board. I am Alice Bishop. I live in the Boro. I am a walker and a non-driver. I have been here 25 years and have always been concerned about transportation. I am Stephanie Charney. I have lived here about 10 years. A pediatrician. One of the reasons we moved here is so I could walk with my young child. I am also concerned about transportation. If we made this table into a square, the rest of us could hear a little better. We need an authority

Carlos: Our mandate, initially, is to review the existing structures, or the existing institutional arrangements that we have in place to address mobility. I would say that would include both Township & Boro agencies or committees, as well as County not-forprofit agencies and, even, State agencies. Why don’t we start with the local arrangements to the extent they exist and work our way up. And, then, we can try to map all of this together. There is some kind of local sidewalk committee. Is there someone who can enlighten us on that

Janet Heroux: I can. I chair the Township Sidewalk and Bikeway Advisory Committee

Dan Rappoport is here and is also on that committee. We are a very small committee appointed by Mayor Marchand. We have spent the last year trying to build bridges between the the Boro, the University and the Township with Phyllis’s blessing and Chad Goerner’s support. The university has given us a team of Woodrow Wilson policy consultants to talk about how to make the downtown Boro more bicycle friendly. So, that is what we are trying to do. We welcome as much community input as possible. It is the idea stage. The idea is to create a bike route, with no preconceptions as to what that is, that would be safe for a middle school child. Essentially to get from John Witherspoon School to this library safely! We are trying to keep this around this area. Princeton University is interested because it is trying to increase the number of its faculty, staff and students that bicycle to work. Creating a safer core Boro benefits them as well. We welcome every comment. Please

Carlos: Would you happen to have a child at JW

Janet: Yes! The reason we use them as a proxy is because that is about the age that experts say that kids should consider starting to ride on the roads instead of sidewalks
High school kids only want to drive cars. Elementary school kids are too young. That way we are hoping to cover the entire population. Thank you

Carlos: Is there a counterpart in the Boro

Janet: Absolutely not

Ralph Widner: There is a slight correlation. There is the Borough Traffic & Transportation Committee of citizens. They have one group that focusses on crosswalk, pedestrian sidewalk. Another group focuses on the bicycle-friendly issue. But the primary concerns on that committee at the moment are the truck traffic problem on 206. The problem that the Alexander Rd/University/Downtown connection will present for university the expansion problems and the intersection between Rt 27 & 206, Mercer & Alexander: what to do about that whole area there. Let’s see they have a couple of other concerns. I don’t think for the moment there is anyone focused on parking

Bob Goldsmith: If I could just throw out a little tidbit I find remarkable. Under the Special Improvement legislation of the State of New Jersey, there is a provision. And to my knowledge no one has relied on it. But there is a provision in State Law that says that not withstanding any law to the contrary, a municipality, exercising the powers of a special improvement district, can take any street or road and cause it to meander, can narrow it, can widen it…which means obviously that you have a DOT issue here. You may have some county roads as well, I don’t know. It gives the respective governments, if they were to create a special improvement district, enormous negotiating power with the DOT

Carlos: The municipalities could do that on a State Highway

Bob Goldsmith: Yes. I read it that, unequivocally, you can do it on a state highway. Obviously, there could be litigation. It is certainly something to come to the table with as a big stick

George Cody: I just want to add an issue. We live in Jugtown. The transition between Nassau St and Rt 27 is really a significant problem

Carlos: Let’s continue…your committee interfaces with whom

Ralph: The Boro Council

Carlos: Do you have any dealings with the Planning Board

Ralph: Yes. In fact, it is represented on the Committee. It meets with the state legislative representative and the Boro engineer

Carlos: And your committee interfaces with whom? Township Committee

Janet: At this point Chad Goerner is our liaison. Just to clarify, we only occupy ourselves with sidewalks and bikeways. You, in the Boro, have a much broader purview

Carlos: Isn’t there also a subcommittee of the Regional Planning Board that deal with Circulation, mobility etc

Janet: Yes. Yina Moore is chair

Carlos: Anybody know anything about that? No. Are there any other local groups that are active

Bob Durkee: Can I say something about the Planning Board? This coming Thursday, the Planning Board will have a hearing…one of the topics of which will be bicycling and circulation in the community. This comes about because of the university’s plans to develop bicycle routes in various parts of the town, including over on Alexander and the area around the university. One of the goals of that is to link whatever the university does with what happens in the township and what happens in the Boro and the Township. That is evidence of the Planning Board saying “This is a topic that needs discussion and it needs integrated discussion.” So there will be some of that this Thursday night

Alice: I’d like to add that another entity here that has been involved in the past is the Senior Center. Mobility is a real concern there. I feel that that group should be brought into a larger group. They don’t have the energy or the finances to Carlos: They are a stakeholder but they feel they are part of… George: In the New York Times today, there is a statement that NJ has the highest pedestrian death rate anywhere despite the things we do. It’s in the New Jersey section. It says that the State has special authority to improve these things. It has money to do it. So there is a state entity that is very much concerned about this

Ralph: One of the issues I failed to mention is the traffic light timing. It turns out the Boro has to go to the State to adjust the traffic lights locally. They are not able to get the attention of DOT, so the Committee is meeting with our legislator to put the heat on them

Bob Goldsmith: Just a suggestion about DOT. There are two sets of mentality at DOT

There are the guys who come out with the rule book. And there the guys who are more broad-reaching…that the pedestrian is also transportation. So you need to make an effort to get to the right people who have the right sense of vision that people walking is also part of the responsibility of the DOT. And I would assume that you might have people living in Princeton who are high-ranking officials at DOT. Bret Barnes is someone and I am sure Carlos knows a fair number of people at DOT that would be worth talking to and would be interested in contributing to this conversation

Carlos: I thought that the legislature had passed a bill this year with respect to the traffic lights that creates the mechanism to have them certified locally

Ralph: I think that was with speed limit and stop signs

Carlos: Does your committee deal with transit at all

Ralph: I have only been on it for 3 months. I am sure it will be on the agenda at some point..the Dinky. The van [FreeB]…I think there is one member of the committee assigned to that question. So far we haven’t addressed the shuttle service question

Carlos: Do you think it is part of your mandate in the advisory committee

Ralph: Actually within the Boro, the mandate of the committee covers every aspect of mobility and transportation

Bob Geddes: Really? Including shuttles

Ralph: Yes

Bob Geddes: As I understand it, the university has shuttle systems, the Institute has a shuttle. Probably several of the other institutions and corporations have shuttle systems

Is there anything being done to coordinate those

….silence from all

Ralph: The university is underwriting the cost of the FreeB shuttle

Bob Geddes: Who did the planning

Bob Durkee: It was a joint effort

---The FreeB jitney involves pedestrian passages to the shuttle stops

---: Is it all one shuttle...the university and the town

Carlos: No. There are many shuttle systems. The hospital has a shuttle system. The Institute. The Seminary. The University. There was a study done a few years ago by the Greater Mercer TMA [Transportation Management Association] which is the nonprofit transit provider in the region. There are many throughout New Jersey. They are funded partly by the NJDOT, with some Federal dollars and partly by corporations. The study looked at all of the private transit providers in the greater Princeton area, as well as bus service from New Jersey Transit. It suggested that all of these service providers are trying to satisfy a latent demand for transit services on their own for their own constituencies. They are putting resources into. They are addressing an existing need. There has been no attempt to add all of these parts together and rationalize a system that works for everybody. The conclusion was interesting. If you were to pool the resources and rationalize the routes etc. maybe all would get a bigger bang for the buck. It might also serve a larger latent demand that is not covered by each one of these. There was never the funding to take it to the next level. It is something to consider

B Lauf: If you are familiar with that study, did it document the disappearance of transit services in recent years? I truly believe that while we are talking about new services, there aspects of existing services that were around for decades that are disappearing year by year. It is an incremental process. I don’t think people are aware of it..or don’t care. The building we are sitting in used to have a local bus stop. I remember reading in the newspaper the Boro Administrator saying: “There is no way there will be a bus stop here.” It had been there for years. I don’t understand why there is not more of an effort made to talk to people who actually use these services and are trying to minimize our detrimental footprint on the area. And at the same time we are trying to go out and start new things. The comment I just heard about the lack of coordination, I think, is very strategic

Carlos: You are referring to NJ Transit

B: Yes. At Palmer Square when the Kiosk changed we lost a ad hoc local bulletin board of transit services…It is a transit point to get off the NY bus and get on the Dinky. There was to be an electronic sign there. It is not there

Bob Geddes: Can I ask: ”Would an Improvement District help?” Carlos: Well, I think we have moved from Bicycle and Pedestrian issues to Transit discussion, maybe one thing that is coming out of this is that there is no structure in place to look at, to coordinate and to make decisions. NJ Transit only looks at the bus routes that it has and the Dinky Line. And whatever other transit we have is privately provided. It is only focused on its own users. There is no preoccupation to try to interlock these pieces to create a system that has the larger synergies

B: There has been a steady erosion. I can not emphasize that enough. I am not affiliated with Princeton Future. But, I have read through the entire 184 p LISTENING TO EACH OTHER Book of Princeton Future. The patterns are very clear. So clear. I am being cautiously skeptical about the planning you are talking about. There are good intentions, but --: I would add that the erosion is due heavily to the lack of effort and concern and expression of interest on behalf of those who might be using the transportation. The current users are a tiny portion of the community. There is a large segment of the community that is simply not interested, except as it might help them drive through the business district

Carlos: In other words take other people’s cars off of the road
…: Exactly! And, get those nasty bus stops out of the way of community activity. I think that is a way a community group might begin accomplishing something here that the public has to address

Carlos: It might be that that attitude is simply a reaction to a lack of availability of transit in a functional and useful way for the general population. Outside of these specialized groups, if you are just an ordinary person, your transit options are extraordinarily limited
…: To some extent, it is a resistance to taking a bus. It is a resistance to the idea of giving up your total independence: your car

Carlos: That is true. There is a cultural thing at play. Those attitudes can change as we saw during the summer when the price of gas went up to $4 a gallon. All of a sudden all of the transit systems in the country were overbooked. There are outside factors that can change the way people perceive transit

B: Could I interject that you actually try to itemize who the decision makers are? Some towns have a transportation coordinator/advocate that the average citizen finds to be banging one’s head against the wall in frustration. Even though I am VERY critical of the University’s effort to move the Dinky out of town, the University is making an enormous effort towards sustainability. It has appointed transportation coordinators. It seems to me that is the kind of model the town needs…or, maybe the town and the University jointly could do this

Janet: Can I respond to your comment, Carlos? My committee has been working with Kristin Appelget and Jeffrey Dermanski who is the assistant coordinator of their sustainability office. They have been very, very cooperative. They embrace the idea of working together. Township + Boro. I that that is a good idea. I think the University wants to put its money where its mouth is! And help. They have a transportation demand coordinator. Their words are serious now

Bob Durkee: Can I say something about context? One of the things that is interesting to me…When the University introduced its shuttle system, now fewer than 10 years ago, What most people said is what you said: “Most people won want to use it!” Because they don’t want to ride on a bus. What we have found is that the use of that system has increased dramatically. Far beyond what anybody thought would be the case. Why? Because it is convenient. Because it works. And, of course, as people think now about gas prices, there is a receptivity to a shuttle system that didn’t exist. It is a system that the public can use. Anyone that wants to get on that system can use it. Most of the public isn’t going to find it very convenient because it isn’t going where they want to go
…: Free parking spots the university gives us and then use the shuttle to move around from Lot 21

Bob Durkee: If you think about transit services disappearing, even though it is in its infant stages, the FreeB is an exception to that. It is the introduction of a new transit service

B Lauf: I agree with you. But I read a few letters to the editor about the time the FreeB was being introduced that asked: “Do you mean there will be a bus that will take me from Nassau St to the Shopping Center?” And they were elated about that. Well, actually, NJ Transit has been running for 3 or 4 decades….a successor to an old trolley system. There is a lack of information
…: One charges. One doesn’t

B: On of the reasons, the University’s Shuttle has been successful is that the University Services Dept has done an excellent job putting up signage. This is the kind of thing if you go to other countries …or you go out west, you’ve got clear signage and schedules at each stop. It takes a lot of time and money to put up that

Bob Durkee: Right
…: The signage…if you are in an automobile, you can’t read it, unless you come to a complete stop

Bob Durkee: If we are seeing, in addition to a decline in transit services, is some evolution on the other side of introducing these transit services. And we are seeing more interest in this. The interesting for me…Some want to start with “What is the structure?” and then, “What is the plan?”. I want to start with “What is the Plan?” And then, “What is the structure?”

Robert Durkee: If what you are talking about is wanting some kind of a transit system in this community that goes well beyond what the FreeB provides. That runs all of the day, instead of parts of the day, and runs out to parts of the Township, instead of just through the Boro…that integrates into other transit systems that already exist…and, if there were consensus in the community, that that is one of the things we’d like to see. For me, the thing to do is to start there and say “That is what we’d like to achieve!” And, then, say “Can that be achieved within existing structures?”…or, “Does that require a new structure?”. All I can say is that I am in conversations with both the Boro and the Township about how we could get to that. I don’t see anything in the existing structure that prevents that from happening if there is consensus that that is something the community would like to see. If there isn’t consensus, it is probably not going to happen

B: The country spends about 80% of its budget for transportation on automobile infrastructure. It might be a good question to ask locally: “What percentage of resources should be allocated for pedestrian, bicycle, trains?” …: One of the things I’ve been hearing is that there are a lot of different structures, services, entities that are all involved. And there is no coordination. The coordination involves the new services as well as the services that used to be here. It would seem to me that the first priority would be to try to find a way to coordinate everything on a community-wide basis. I am not sure whether that is a structure or function priority. That is the first thing that needs to be done! We are talking about all different kinds of things that relate to transportation. Everyone doesn’t know what we have! And what we used to have that we don’t have. We need to find some way to focus the discussion, the information and the decisions that are going to be made

George Cody: There is technology around today so that you could actually have a bus stop that said “Is the shuttle working today, because I have to get to the train!” AT that stop, it said “Shuttle due in 10 minutes”
…: Right

Carlos: Yes. Real-time information

George: A lot of the things we have to do is to critically meet a train somewhere. You say “I am going to rely on it” How do I know it hasn’t stopped? How do I know it is still working

B: That is where the coordinator comes in. I know everyone here thinks that the Washington Rd pedestrian crossing is a nightmare….pedestrians being hit. It happens every so often, like last semester. A staff member was hit. I have crossed this fall where the signaling system was not working. I reported it to Public Safety. I didn’t know who to call. I don’t know who owns that. What the hassle is to get it fixed. But that is perennially out of coordination. It doesn’t function. There is something, if you had a coordinator, who would see that through. That is more basic than the signage you’ve been mentioning

Robert Geddes: 3 things: One is common planning between the University and the Downtown…the Downtown and the Neighborhoods of the Boro and the Township

Planning is part of it. Secondly is the coordination of the various parts. Thirdly is whether a new structure is needed or do we turn to the government and say “This is your function.” Bob, you have to realize when I am talking about structures, it may well be that the structural possibility is a governmental responsibility

Carlos: Right. And, I think where this conversation will lead us to is essentially match the issues and problems with the solution. So we are coming at it in both directions at the same time

…: I think the structure kind of exists between the FreeB, NJ Transit and the Shuttle offered by the University. It is a matter of coordination, signs and advertising. People really don’t know. Bus schedules are hard to find. Bus stops are hard to find. The are not coordinated with train schedules and other people’s buses. If we took what we have, made it more accessible, in a climate of “This is a transportation community!” and made that our effort where we spend our money

…: Why don’t we have one person who is willing to take on the job of being the local transportation czar? And then, form a ‘community of others’ who have been active in the community, leaders…who got together, and, in planning, were able to reach out to these various…extend their tentacles…into, well, publicity is one thing that comes to mind…to bring the separate entities we have been talking about together. I see it as having to start with a core

Carlos: It has to start somewhere. There is no doubt about that. It is so difficult transit to make transit work in this country. It really is an extraordinarily difficult thing to do. On the other hand, when we are able to achieve that, and there are a number of success stories from around the country. The rewards are extraordinary. It is a risk that is well worth taking. It is not just transit. It is land use as well. If you don’t get the land use side right, you can never get the transit. To wrap up this part of the conversation: there are a lot of things out there that are underutilized because of a lack of visibility and publicity. So the question is: “Would better coordination, higher visibility solve this problem?” Or, would it take it to a slightly higher level, but it is not going as far as we need it to go
…: We need to try
…: I don’t think the people around this table know all of the options that are already available to us

Carlos: Would the idea of having coordination between all of these private systems be a positive thing for the community

Bob Durkee: The answer is positive, but not enough. Knowing what’s there now isn’t enough. It doesn’t give you much of a transit system. There needs to be addition. As was said before from the university’s perspective, because we are trying to put in a plan that significantly reduces the number of our people who feel they need to drive. That creating a system that covers more of the community more of the day s something that we have a self interest in, as well as I think, there is a community interest. So, when we have the perennial conversation: “Would the University contribute more?”…This is a good example of something that the university would contribute more to. So we could talk about, not just more coordinated, but expanded system where the university is not only a planning player, but is also a financial player. So my answer is coordination is not enough. It is helpful, but not enough

Carlos: That is a very clear message. Thank you

Chip Crider: As some of you know, I’ve been going around pushing some new ideas. But I have a list of criteria for public transit to work. It’s gotta go where people want to go. It’s gotta go when they want to go 24-7. Not much waiting, if any. It’s gotta be energy efficient. It has to have reasonable fares. Minimal waiting. If somehow, NJ Transit could do something like this, as soon as it started to work, they’d raise the fares! And then it wouldn’t work. To be efficient, it has to be appealing. It’s gotta attract ridership. A number of years ago, Harry Chapin wrote a song with a line in it…”Greyhound, it’s a dog of a way to get around..”. It has tobe perceived as an integral part of the whole system

Bob Geddes: What is ‘it’

Chip Crider: Public Transit in Princeton. Any system we can consider. It has to be an integral part of a whole system. Not just a patch. Not just ‘we have some people who live out here, let’s add this little run.’ It’s gotta be: ‘Let’s go to Princeton and we can get anywhere we need to go with the local system.’ In other countries like England, trains are a vital part of society. It’s second nature. It’s there. It’s gotta cover the last mileObviously you can’t have a train going to everyone’s front door. You have to identify the concentrated areas of demand. That’s what we’re talking about with all of these scattered systems. That’s a start buy where is the demand? It’s gotta cover the last mile and it has to go to those concentrated areas of demand. If it fails one of those things, it’s not going to be immensely successful. So, we put in the FreeB. Great idea. It only runs part of the time
…: It only runs in the Boro

Chip: It is very limited. The ridership is very limited. It doesn’t go 24/7. It doesn’t go where people want to go. You have to wait for it. The FreeB is horribly cost inefficientThe other night I was at the WaWa at 1 AM. Hoagie Haven closed early. And the Dinky comes. It was a Sunday night. The conductor gets off. Does his thing in the little building there. There wasn’t a single passenger. But the Dinky ran on time. It didn’t make any sense…: I think you are confusing goals with objectives. You talk about goals and the goal is to improve he transit system. To have more mobility. This is a progressive type of thing. If you have a coordinating committee, the first thing it is going to have to find out: What objectives are reasonable? To know that, we have to know everything about what the state mandates are, what the Township is capable of, what the University is capable of…so, you have to have a realistic base in order to get to the first objective. That requires some type of coordination

Chip: Well sure. We have an enormous resource that we are squandering. That resource is the University. The University has had the foresight to do a whole lot of planning. A whole lot more planning than the Planning Board did and than the politicians did. And the University comes with its plan and everyone gets down on them. I think, ‘jeez’, talk about fouling your own nest. Here is an entity that is willing to help us. Let’s work with them and move ahead

Bob Geddes: It is a bad thing when we agree with you because it ends our conversation. I think it is true. You have made a point. The university is ahead…on sustainability and on transportation

Carlos: It s very dangerous to publicize a plan when there are no other plans around

Bob G: There was a conference recently that the Urban Land Institute ran. In every case the universities were in advance of the communities. Can we use that as a model? And demand from the governments that they do a comparable level of planning

B: A lot of the motivation can be to operate efficiently.
…: You should plan a comprehensive system all at once

Bob G: And monitor it
…: An important thing on that, is that it shouldn’t be limited just to mobility. If there theses 3 entities: the Boro, the Township & the University. Mobility is very important. But they should be in conversation with those who are talking about housing and other issues
…: Of course
…: As someone who now lives in Stonebridge, outside of the Boro & the Township…It is a regional thing. You ought to be able to get to the train station which is not in the Boro or township. So, I think, you …one of the things about this group is that you can’t just limit it to just the Boro and the Township. Functionally, it is regional
…: They talk about re-opening the train stations on the West Trenton Line

Chip: I think I am correct, the 604 bus goes into Montgomery and it doesn’t even go to Stonebridge. And it’s only 3 minutes away

Bob Geddes: It goes into Griggs Farm

Chip: And it goes up to a bus stop on Orchard Rd
…: It doesn’t get to Griggs Farm until 5:30

Carlos: Let me try to tie these various threads together. It sounds as if there is aconsensus here, that there should be a local source of transit knowledge. Somebody or some institution, some group, whatever. A structure…whatever we want to call it…that is knowledgeable about transit in the nitty-gritty way that it operates. We don’t seem to have it now. It would serve a function of coordination and information between these various transit providers and go further: to think more long term to take what we have now and really tur it into a viable, functional transit system that can change the way people think about transit and about how they relate to their cars and so forth. Am I capturing what.

B: I think there needs to be a strong political will for this. That structure or person needs to have a certain amount of authority to follow through on the things we have mentioned.Is there the political will

Bob Geddes: That is the point of having a Partnership, like the Morristown Partnership, that would be able to do that. Some place has to own this…to want to do it. And that would be a Partnership…what Bob Goldsmith suggests. He was the creator of the Morristown Partnership. It is a real functional… B: Could I ask a quick question of the University? When you were referring to an openess to working with some kind of coordination possibly sharing not only planning, but some of the expenses. I am not clear…Does the University have a position…Let’s say there was a proposal such as Chip has, or some other new transit system, or a revitalized one, that would serve both the campus and the surrounding communities: Does the University want to keep those distinct? On campus. Off. Or, are you amenable to an integrated

Bob Durkee: I don’t think it works unless it is an integrated system

B: Well, that is very positive

Bob Durkee: What I should probably say, so that there is no ambiguity: We don’t want to run a parking authority or a transit authority…or a community transit system. So whoever ran this…We don’t own the Dinky. We own the station. The reason we own the station is because that is how we subsidize the Dinky. What I was saying, if there is way to do this, to create an entity that could develop a more robust system, I think we’d be interested in helping to make that happen. There is no reason it should replicate the places you can get to on the University Shuttle system. The transfers ought to be easy. The one other thing I wanted to say is that I think this can work as a conversation involving the Boro, the Township, the University and others, but, for me, this is one of those issues, if you were thinking about the pluses and minuses of consolidation, this is one that goes on the plus side. It is really hard to imagine this working unless it is fully integrated across municipal boundaries. I think you can get there through discussion and negotiation. I just think it is easier

B: Do you have to wait for that

Bob D: You wouldn’t want to wait for that, no. It can be an example. Whatever you created now could lead… Bob G: Do you see parking and transportation as two separate things? Would you go so far as to say that the University Parking System, its Transit System and the Community’s Parking and Transit Systems could all be coordinated

Bob Durkee: I see them as separate questions. They are related

Bob Geddes: Parking & Transportation …: I really like Carlo’s idea that there should be someone who gathers the information to tell people where to go. Then from the bottom up would come the idea that “I can’t get from here to there”..then there would be a suggestion…”We need this…We need that…”. Then you could see whether you need an authority to do this

George: I would like to build on that. There 3 kinds of people in this town. People connected to the University. People working at the University, actively. People in the Boro. People in the Township. People who every now and then love to go somewhere. It would be nice to be able to do a sample of the population and ask: “What works for you right now? What doesn’t work for you? And, what do you dream of in local parking & transportation..in going to the University…to it’s never been done ..: I think you have a good point. Before you act, you need to understand the need. Look at usage patterns. A lot of the information has been anecdotal

George: It could be done systematically
…: We could get high school kids…campus people. We are a relatively small community, compared to other types of communities

B: There has been a lot of that already done. I am not saying there isn’t room for more, but… …: I have lived in the Township for 26 years. We have never been canvassed on this

George: With the exception of getting involved with Princeton Future

Carlos: The private providers obviously know their market. It is the general public that doesn’t fall into anyone of these categories, that is absent from the conversation
…: It is when it is valuable from the general public’s perspective that it will work

Carlos: Absolutely
…: I know Princeton isn’t Paris or London. But when you go to a city for the first time, the transit experience can be so pleasant, and you really remember that! Princeton is small, but it is smack dab in the middle of two of the biggest cities in the country. People come here to live. People go to the other cities frequently. I think we can think of ourselves in the context of the two larger cities [NY & Phila]. People come use the city on foot, on train, on bus. The culture of public transportation and getting rid of your car
…: I would like to add a word for people such as myself who have no choice and will have no choice but to use our cars everyday to go to our offices. On business. I will say it is absolutely terrible. I don’t even know where to start approaching it aside from saying we need more public transportation. The number of cars on our streets is just too great! It is to the point…Last night was unusual, there was football game. I was coming home from my office. It took me… Bob Geddes: Can we talk about solutions, not problems
…: I just want to say there too many cars on the road

Bob Geddes: What solutions are possible
…: Haven’t they proposed Bus Rapid Transit
…: A solution of Transportation v Land use v Parking v getting around. After the first 2 meetings of Princeton Future, a plan was produced in several forms. The general idea was to have park & ride beyond Witherspoon St at that end of town…and another, I think, over by the University athletic fields

Bob Geddes: It is true. A dispersed system of parking…community-wide, with shuttle connections and bus connections between them would require a university & community plan

Carlos: Are you talking about special events..like a football game

Bob Geddes: No. I don’t think is a special event
…: The cars are bad all of the time

Robert Geddes: You are using a car to get to work. In fairness, your description of the perfect transportation system would lead you logically to re-invent the car
…: Except for the efficiency
…: There is a difference between planning and execution. You can write a plan and when you try to execute it, the first thing you find out is there are a lot of obstacles. You have to know… for instance how many people know that the state has the right to say ‘no’ to changes in traffic lights

Carlos: OK. Have we answered the 3rd question? How would consolidation help
…: It would but let’s not wait
…: Let me say something about consolidation. I have opposed it in the past. I live in the Boro and I have a business in the Township. I know there are certain departments in the Boro that have impossible people in them. Boy, I don’t want that person bothering both my home and my business!

Carlos: Sounds like a really good reason to avoid consolidation
…: I think the real issue is that neither government is willing to give up the power. I think if you did consolidate there would probably be the same percentage of lemons in each department. Would we be willing to have 2/3rds the number of elected officials? It all comes back to home rule. Home rule has hurt us in a lot of ways

B: I don’t think any centralized transportation system should be held up because of various governmental entities

Bob G: That’s right. The reason not to wait for consolidation is that consolidation is not the real boundary. If you really look at mobility it isn’t set by the facts of the Township & the Boro. It has no municipal boundaries. The region is set by need. Carlos, is there any example of regional transportation systems evolving

Carlos: Yes. Some have been created from scratch. For example, in Denver, the regional transportation district as been very successful in forming a coalition between the city and county of Denver and all of the surrounding municipalities where enormous amounts of growth are occurring. They have built a light rail line which they have expanded and expanded and expanded. They have integrated it with bus. A very successful example. It started 10 years ago, or so

Bob G: I think Lawrenceville, Montgomery, West Windsor are involved
…: And the county. They make a big deal that you can’t have a bus route that goes over county lines…the route to Plainsboro
…: Let’s get back to step one. We gotta get information about what exists and what’s needed in order to make a decision. The question is how do we make that first step happen? Who does it? There will be gaps in the information. That will cost some money
Someone will have to do a survey, gather traffic information. The question is “Do we have the resources in Princeton Future? Or, do we have the resources elsewhere to get that step one done
…: I think another thing is just to get the few groups in the Princeton area is hard..adding other municipalities makes it that much more difficult. Let’s try to fix the problem here first, and then move to a broader area. The question I would ask you is “Where do we go from here? What is the next step so that the time we spent today has some purpose and meaning? Is there a plan to go beyond these meetings to really effect some kind of change

Carlos: I think the idea of better coordination between transit providers that are already in place..NJ Transit and all of the private providers is the first step. The serious transit demand analysis needs to take place, targeting the population at large. Under what circumstances would you ride transit? That is a very technical study

Bob Geddes: Truck service is a major factor. The cost of doing business. And making the place work. Downtown Princeton is at risk because there are no servicing yards…the beer truck in front of Community Liquors. It is more than just transit

Carlos: We can’t tackle everything. Please
…: This gentleman has asked a very good question. What is the next step

B: Has there ever been a true brainstorming session? A non-judgmental throwing out of ideas and facts? I was under the impression that might be what was happening today. Has Princeton Future done that

Bob Geddes: We’ve done it. We did. We should probably do it again

Chip: 2 comments here. This gentleman said we need all of this data. The university has accumulated over half the data. You have to go to the meetings and read the reports to get it. We are halfway there. We have this resource: this University. They have done half of the plan

Bob Geddes: How do we get the other half done

Chip: Your guess is as good as mine. The second comment is: another study? I am an engineer and I am a practical guy. I am also a scientist. Sooner or later, you just have to try something. That is what has been done with the FreeB. And the Shuttle. And that is what I hope is done with more things in the future [ed: SPURTS!]. We can study until we are blue in the face. Anyone of us who has been in town for more than 20 years knows where the shortcomings are. We don’t need more studies
…: I think that is a good point
…: I’d like to point out that better coordination is a goal we all recognize. Behind it, there has to be a WHAT and a WHO. A CORE
…: Has Princeton Future approached any officials? How does a group get added
…: About a year ago, a group of people did try to develop a joint transportation committee. I don’t know where it went. Ron Lesard was a guy who headed it. The idea has floated. It was the sidewalk and bicycle advisory committee of the Township who came to the Planning Board and said “This is a problem. We would like to see a Joint Transportation Committee.” I didn’t go anywhere

Bob Durkee: It is time to try again. Maybe the answer is out of this is that the Boro, the Township, the Planning Board, and the University ought to constitute a small planning group that would work on issues of coordination. That would begin to work on plans to begin expanding capacity. Those are the entities that at the end of the day are going to make it happen. So, maybe it is a matter of recommending that they put together a group sooner rather than later
…: All 3: Township/Boro/University Bob Durkee: Correct. Correct. And anyone else that wants to be part of this
..: When we are talking about money, there is a pot of money that the state has that actually do…it can be a grant..to fund this kind of work. For instance, they financed the Vision 206 Project. That comes with no commitment to actually fund the implementation. It could be that whatever entity we are talking about could get that small pot to do this work. Essentially, I think what you would find, after you have mapped everything that has been done, plus whatever information we gather,is that the region we need to serve will define itself. It will reach over into West Windsor and some other places
…: You have to recruit people to do this. Someone has to recruit people to be part of this coordinating group

Bob Geddes: That is really the question: IS it a governmental question? Or, is it going to have to be another group outside of government
…: It might be a group outside. This is where… …: Like an advisory group
…: I have been uncomfortable about your proposal “What kind of structures we need?”…until we find out what our problems are. Here is a case where maybe, but it is in no way certain, that we may find that the instruments of government we have can’t do effectively what needs to be done. So we create some kind of new entity like a partnership

Robert Geddes: Our concern is that for 8 years we have defined problems
…: I understand that. In many cases, if the instrument of government did its job, we could solve that problem. It is not doing its job. Sometimes the instrument of government can’t do its job. And that is when you need a new instrument

Carlos: Right! It doesn’t seem like it is anybody’s job right now
…: Right

Robert Geddes: That is exactly right. That’s the problem
…: But why wouldn’t we recommend that the government and the university appoint a joint, even ad hoc, advisory committee so that it has official sanction but functions without a pre-existing structure that can’t get something done. But make it official so that you catch the attention of the government, the planning board, the mayors
…: Wouldn’t it be good to research the impact of the committee hat you were talking about
…: It’s will. Political will. It’s the wariness of working together. The Township is not going to pay for this…The Boro isn’t going to pay for that. You can maybe overcome that with a third partner. I have detected a tremendous uptake on bike-ped issues over the last year. It may be the zeitgeist. Maybe now is the time. In my limited experience, working in partnership with government officials really helps. The partnership with the university has added tremendous momentum
…: Dan was asking about what are the first steps we need to take. I think the first thing we need to do is to plan a shuttle to the new site of the hospital. I think of students having to walk to the hospital now…and then having to walk down Lower Harrison St where there no sidewalks to get to and to cross Rt One. What are we going to do? We have to cross a county boundary

Bob Geddes: That is a real example of not being bound by the Boro and the Township

Bob Durkee: The hospital is going to run that shuttle

All: Oh…another element

Bob Durkee: It needs to be integrated

Carlos: So, Bob, where do we go from here

Bob Geddes: I think the recommendation is to have the Boro, the Township, the University and some regional …to do information, planning and implementation, that is you plan for the implementation, of the mobility issues. Public transit. Private systems Cars & trucks. Do that in a coordinated effort as an additional activity of this community. It does not exist

Carlos: We haven’t talked about cars and trucks all that much

B: When you have a whole transportation picture, you will obviously focus in on cars
…: The most interesting thing that was mentioned at this meeting, that I never realized, because the truck issue is a big issue with us right now…IF you really could, through an improvement district, redesign the way 206, in particular, comes through the community…to deal with the truck problem. That is an incredible piece of information I have never had, because right now, the feeling on our committee is that we are very limited in what we can do because of interstate commerce issues, court decisions and so on. So long as we don’t have a direct connection between I-287 and I-95, they are going to use 206. That means they are going to come through here. We feel perilous because we are caught between the state and federal governments on this issue. If it is true and I really want to look into this that a community improvement district could actually change the alignment of a route, which I find hard to believe, but if that is legal, then I want to look into it

Bob Durkee: What he said is close it off to traffic. Imagine what happens to this town if you close it off to traffic. If you deal with the truck problem, then you have every car… …: I thought he said you could make it a winding route… so that it would no longer be in their interest… Bob Durkee; He said it could be a pedestrian meandering route

Bob Geddes: You have given it a name that is better than the one we had: A Community Improvement District, rather than special improvement district….rather than business improvement district. I mean think about that

B: It is more encompassing

Bob G: Yes

…: You only need it if you can’t get the instruments of government to do the job

B: In a way, it is admitting a failure of government to do its job
…: Don’t forget there are problems that come with these special entities. Once you create them, it fragments the responsibility of the elected officials. So it becomes difficult to hold them accountable. They’ll say…”I don’t do that..go over and talk to the Sewer Authority…” And they can’t coordinate and make coherent policy across the state. There are a lot of communities in this countrthat have too many special districts. And the local government is powerless to effect things. So you have to be very careful

Bob G: You need to create new improvement districts …: If you need it

Carlos: Right. It could be contradictory to be advocating for consolidation on the one hand and for the creation of additional layers of government on the other. Those things could be seen as canceling each other out. The advantage of some of these structures, a community improvement…development corporation is that there are other things that they can do by statute. So, the do bring more to the table than just another layer of government

B: Do most of them come into being because of the lack of ability to accomplish something? Is it because of a lack of money? Because, essentially, they are a tax on businesses. I think of them, at least initially, as cleaning up litter
…: In Philadelphia, it happened because the town wasn’t doing its job

Carlos: It is more than that
…: In Philadelphia, …: I think we have consensus that we need some type of new structure
…: With the power to accomplish something

End of session

The Downtown Table

Jim Constantine: I am a planner and a downtown business owner with 15 employees. I have some skin in the game. Peter Kann is going to scribe for us. Maybe we can do a quick round the table…names and give a quick comment about how the existing structures work. By that, I mean businesses…opening a business, locating a business, financing a business, seeing the right businesses here. Recruiting workers. Competing for local business. Making us more sustainable. Some off-the-top comments. How is it working today

Allan Kehrt: I am an architect in town. I have a firm, KSS, that has been here for 30 years. I have been involved in a lot of things in Princeton over the years. It is an extraordinary place. One of the issues I am finding right now: I want to own and stay in Princeton, but I need to find more space if I want to stay. We have about 7000 SF. We need about 10 or 12k. I can’t afford to go anywhere in Princeton. It is a wonderful town. It has a wonderful stock of buildings that are being occupied by people who can pay very high rent. But it is getting to the point where it is an unaffordable town. I’d like to stay in Princeton

Kevin Wilkes: I guess given my new focus, I think I am going to suggest that, having been in the private sector, taking clients through the approval process, getting a business going in the Boro….and now that I am looking at it from another angle: We make it inordinately complicated in the Boro for small and large merchants, people who want to open a storefront. We need to streamline the process and find a way to be more merchantfriendly

Raoul Momo: I am one of the owners of TerraMomo. We have 3 businesses in town. I am on the Council of Princeton Future and am supportive of the idea of forming an Improvement District here. Why? We have businesses on Palmer Square and in the downtown. It is night and day. We see it every day. Palmer Sq provides daily services, cleaning sidewalks, garbage collection...the Downtown really needs that. Nassau St needs that. I was walking the other day… I was curious because I didn’t know. Who cleans the University side of Nassau St.? And who cleans the town side? I think the University would contribute to that. To keep the downtown looking clean..to address this. We get a lot of tourists…and the residents would like it as well

Michael Floyd: I am a resident. I sit on the zoning board. I question whether there is a need for different authorities. I am interested in that discussion. Other towns have done it. I don’t know where the decision-making goes. Yes, New Brunswick has Devco. But it also has a housing authority. Newark has a housing authority that built its arena and its financial center. It is truly independent? I worry about the decisions. There is some body of people that decides something ultimately makes sense. You start creating another level of direction and supposed responsibility

Jim: Right. And that is our next topic as we talk about possible structures. Let’s try to get comments on how the existing structures work…or, don’t

Wanda Gunning: I serve on the Regional Planning Board. I think that since I have lived in Princeton, one of the biggest losses is the loss of service areas. We have worked very hard to keep housing in the downtown. And, we talk all of the time about getting more housing in the Downtown. But the services people need are something they have to get into a car to go out of town for. It may be that it is an economic problem: high rents. Maybe our zoning needs to create areas where there are pockets of service so businesses could stay. We still don’t have a grocery store downtown. Right in the downtown. Dry cleaners. We are now down to one. Pharmacies..one or two. People who live here, especially people who commute are going to want to have these services, quickly, on weekends. This, I think, is a failure of organization

Jim: Where do you get your shoes repaired after John’s closed? Montgomery. Princeton Junction. Pennington. That is real good for sustainability

Joshua Zinder: I am a Boro resident. I have a similar issue. 2 years ago, I started my own architecture firm. For me, finding a reasonably-priced rental office in Princeton’s downtown is impossible. Especially for a start up. This ends up driving those small businesses out to Rt One and beyond. I think that that is really a shame. For me sustainability is something that is really important. I want to be able to ride my bike and bring my kids to school. It becomes very difficult. I am now in a space with no windows because that is basically what I can afford. I think that is one thing I’d like to change

Jack Morrison: I, too, have 3 businesses in town. Nassau St Seafood, Blue Point Grill, Witherspoon Grill. I am also the developer of building ‘C’. As a merchant, I understand that we all see services leave, but services are economically driven. Whereas your architectural footprint can be nationwide, worldwide, a shoe repairman has a small footprint of people that are going to come and get their shoes repaired. A hardware store has a small footprint of people that are going to come in. The big boxes have been… and this is going on all over the country. It is certainly a pleasure to have you on board now. The town as you know, when we moved in down on Nassau St in 1982 the rent was $600 there was nobody down there. It was like you said: It was the other end of town. It was economically viable for me to open up something. Then we went through that big explosive growth, and we were so concerned with overgrowth etc etc. We restricted banks. We restricted this and that. We are more reactive than proactive in what we do. I also do feel that there is a tipping point soon because of the vacancies. I mean if you look around there are a lot of vacancies. While you are looking, you will see that lots has changed over the last 8 weeks in the world markets. I tend to think that this is a good thing, what we are talking about here, right now. Let’s look forward. We’ll have another 56, a total of 80 living units. Palmer Sq is going to have an additional 100. I think between that and tough economic times, I see a bright future for the downtown if we plan correctly and have service areas

Susan Hockaday Jones: I think I’ll speak from the perspective of someone who raised a family in the Boro starting in the early 60’s. For our family, the Boro had basically everything we needed. I could walk up to town with my children. Go to Farr Hardware, Allen’s for clothes, Hulits Shoes, Clayton’s, you name it. And, gradually, all of those services have disappeared, and the clientele of the town has really changed. We are now a town that has to meet the needs of several different populations. One of them being the people who come from the outside because as someone has said once, “It is sort of the perfect shopping mall.” Instead of going to Quaker Bridge, you can come to Princeton and have a better time. So we are really facing a 5-way conflict. I think what you said is really interesting. It is a moment of real opportunity to maybe return to some of the things we used to have in the downtown that we all wish we had. But we have to deal with the pressure of real estate value. And the simple economic pressures that are driving these individual lots in the other direction

Peter Morgan: I am an architect. I am just north in Rocky Hill for economic reasons. I spent a year in London at the Architectural Association and one of our core curriculum pieces was the Ministry for the Quality of Life. The essence of it was: “What are your day-to-day activities? What do you want them to be? How do you want to spend your life? How much time do you want to spend in the car? What is the quality of life that makes everything enjoyable?” And, I will tell you that that year in London, being in a very livable human scale, having the shops you can easily get to, restaurants, entertainment. Think of all the things you do on a very simple scale. How you want to orchestrate them. I think, again, that this is a great opportunity

Ron Levine: I am doctor of chiropractics here in Princeton. I live in the Township. I think it is a great place to live and it has been for the last 12 years since I lived here. There does seem to be a loss of uniqueness and individuality here. And I am just happy that there is an opportunity to take an active role in that rather than seeing [downtown] life slipping slowly downhill

Peter Kann: I have the same sense most of you do that the town is changing…in most ways not for the better…Particularly at the point where you cannot buy a necessity of life in this town. And, most of us have to drive out to malls. What is encouraging are the remaining family-owned businesses that tend to be represented around a table like this. People like Jack, Raoul and others. The managers of the chain stores are not represented anywhere in this kind of forum or in any efforts to improve the community. This says something about the decline of family-owned stores which is a problem. The other point, I guess I’d make, as I look at the town…There are actually three entities. There is Palmer Square which looks after itself pretty well. There is Princeton University which, after all, is half the downtown, in a way. It looks after its own interests pretty well, but doesn’t much look after the rest of the town. And then, there is the rest, which is what we are really talking about. I would guess that the only way we improve the rest is to engage Palmer Square and the University in the solutions

Fran Parker: This my first meeting. I am a resident of the Township and a commuter. I spend a lot of time in NY. I am not a business owner here. I was a life-long resident of Manhattan before I moved here. One of the things that was a shock as an urban transplant to the suburbs is the lack of a sense of a community center. When I came here, no one used the playgrounds. Common spaces were underutilized. I was particularly shocked by the lack of liveliness on the street. There has been wonderful change. This square is fantastic and there is much more sense of a place to come to. But if the businesses around it don’t support that, it loses an essence of a town and a community center. When I went to the University recently to hear Cory Brooker, he was asked by an architect in the audience “What you would see as the architectural symbol of the 21st century, and he said “Hopefully, the Town Square.” So I ust think that kind of spirit is important and it is great to see local business people represented here

Mark Censits: I am a local business person. I just recently opened CoolVines, a wine shop at the corner of Harrison and Nassau. I own another store up in Westfield. It was supposed to be store number two, but it became store number one because of some of the issues that Kevin alluded to: the challenges of dealing with the local Boro government and some state agencies as well. Right now the business is doing well and I am encouraged by the local support we have been getting, especially that neighborhood, the Jugtown Neighborhood. There are a lot of people that walk to our store which is kind of astounding. I am excited to hear what we’re talking about. I, too, would like to see the downtown become, not only a commercial service but a social service to the town, a place where people can and be and join in for other reasons to be together. That is one of the initiatives with the company I’ve formed here

Jim: And you joined us as well? Who you are and a quick comment about how the existing structures relate to businesses: what works and doesn’t

David Schure: I am not a business owner, but I do work for a downtown business. It does have contact with the state. But I did spend 20 years working on downtown revitalization prior to that. I can see all of the ideas you are talking about…I can see some of the structures you are talking about…how you might get there…and what fits best…some of the things other downtowns have done in the past are good for learning…I don’t know if they are good for copying. What is best for Princeton

Jim: Rather than switching to some of the other topics here, like housing, parking and transportation and environment, maybe we just stay on the business front because we have hit some veins that we will want to talk a little bit about. Bob Goldsmith talked about New York City. There 60 special improvement districts. More than any other place. It is interesting, if you go online, they also have offices that will help you locate a business, find a space and then open a business. Navigate governmental process in starting and expanding. They are actually help. Not to say that there aren’t some fine folks in Boro Hall who help.

Kevin: There is friction in each step in the process. It should be lubricated such that it all flows more smoothly. You get through a particular area, let’s say zoning: and then the step to construction is yet a whole ‘nother awkward dance step. That should be made… Fran: So how do you do that

Jim: You have to be open to change! And, reform

Kevin: I want to say this. The Boro has taken one step. They have appointed Don Mayer Brown. They have taken him out of the Sewer Operating Committee and put him in this special assistant to the new Engineer, Chris Budzinski. The idea is that he will be the point person to get the low level daily things pushed along so the engineer can focus on the bigger issues. So the are starting to make a step internally. I think we need to go way beyond that. We need to combine the two construction departments of the Boro and the Township into one construction department. It needs to have a Class One rating. Right now our local agencies carry a Class Two rating which makes us like a suburban town. So any time a university project comes through, we send it down to Trenton into the gaping black hole of DCA [Dept of Community Affairs] and wait some days until it is burped back out. We could provide much better service to our university, to our sophisticated institutional clients, to our mid-level commercial clients…and quite honestly, we do fine for our single family residential clients
…: Why has Princeton never been a Class One agency. That has been driving me crazy for 30 years

Kevin: Construction officials don’t want to assume the liability for plan review for a university building like the Gehry building. My God, they don’t even know which way to turn the drawing to read it

Jack: I am also wondering if it is not economically-driven because it would require a much more sophisticated operation downstairs

Kevin: Correct. That is why you need to combine the two
…: This is all driven by fees. It is paid for

Jack: There is also infrastructure. Chris Budzinski’s salary is not driven by fees. We the townspeople of the Boro support those salaries. The university, since they don’t pony up. Really, we need to talk about economies also. I agree with your discussion

Kevin: I assure you, there would be economies to the developer and eventual purchaser if the process can move faster. I am not saying sacrifice quality. In fact, I’d actually like to improve the quality of construction plan review in the area

Jack: Having spent for many years, as Raoul has, and you, now, being on the Council, can see that the government’s focus has clearly been on the residential component of the town, whereas the streets of the town don’t get the attention they need… Kevin: The people come out and vote…all of the residents

Jack: Correct, but that is why we are speaking about a SID. Quite frankly we spend a lot on real estate taxes but we are the step child of the town

…: But the process, particularly from the point of view of the developer…I would imagine, if anyone was developing here, would pick up all of the costs to save a month or two. To have local review

Kevin: If there were increased staff costs in a review that went 3 months faster, I can’t imagine a developer who would complain about that
…: It would be a no-brainer

Peter Kann: Kevin, is the Boro, the political entity, somewhat skeptical to start with

Kevin: No. They are simply unprepared to think in the terms that time is efficiency and that time is accomplishment. On schedule. On time. You know their clock ends at 5 o’clock

Peter: If they were a business, they’d be out of business
…: So would Washington

Kevin: Case in point. I took 3 guys from public works, with one of my guys and moved the Vinter Fountain in an efficient period of 3 weeks. We rebuilt it. Reinstalled it. Repaired all of the plumbing. Got it done in a remarkably efficient fashion using, mostly, public works employees. It’s a leadership issue

Fran: We are supposed to bring consolidation into…is this pointing in that direction

Peter Kann: But first we need to talk about what would the new structure…

Kevin: I think we should close on the issue of do the existing structures work, or not work? Because I must tell you. From a strategic point of view, I generally tilt towards incremental improvements, repair and renovate, than completely tear down and rebuild. Both as an architect and as public official for you guys. In general I want to fix things I can fix this month. And if I have to dream about stitching the two towns together over 10 ears…ok…But we need action now. We need to make this happen
…: Could we sub out a lot of the engineering review

Kevin: No. The Boro handles a lot of stuff. The Boro provides an extremely high level of service. My criticisms are not about how the people do what they do. It is just the way that it is done. Is it entirely..so much is “This is how we have done it..” There is no real incentive to re-stir the pot. When I say to people “What if we did this or that…?” they go “OK”. I don’t sense an institutional unwillingness to innovate. I just don’t think they are entirely certain…What you don’t want to do is make an innovation that makes things worse. They are afraid of lowering the baseline. We have to trun that around

Jack: There has been a greta change with Chris

Kevin: Yes. Extraordinary

Jack: Bob Bruschi …it has been a refreshing change to allow the Boro Administrator to administrate. There was a lot of entrenched..”This is the way we have done it..” tenured employees

Kevin: The entire squabble over the sewer at North Ridge between the Boro and the Township relate to this issue. The way things were done at the Boro were not done to professional accounting standards. A stack of bills here…a stack of bills over there. All of that stuff is slowly being remapped. This will be a parallel procees to what is happening in finance under Sandra who is now in charge of finance. Departments are getting rebuilt. They are going to be more efficient. It’s a great time to think about how to get these departments to work more efficiently

Mark: I’d like to point out that a lot of this conversation is about new construction and new development. Someone mentioned that there is a lot of vacancy in the town. And there is a lack of businesses that would serve a holistic community…so, that doesn’t address all of the commercial and merchant issues… Jim: And that is my segue. I’d like to call on you..What created the hurdles in the timeline that was problematic for you trying to get open. You hung out the shingle in Westfield first

Mark: I have to say the overall I received is that I am trying to get away with something by opening this business. The fact that I am dealing with an alcohol license had some element to it. There is still kind of a post-Prohibition kind of attitude. You’d think I was going to market crack the way I was treated at times. I can’t put alcohol in the basement of my store right now

Kevin: You have State background checks to get… Mark: Yes. But I ended up having to rinse out a glass that is being used for a tasting…I had to install a $1200 commercial dishwasher. I was held to a higher standard thn the State law requires to wash a wine glass. Things like that. I don’t want to turn this into a gripe session. There were significant things. I have gotten through them. Really what I am looking at now is “What is the town looking at doing to create this sort of vibrancy where people do come here first to do their shopping? I don’t want to be a tourist business. I don’t want to just depend on caterers and events. I want our store to exist because we are providing a service. A product that people in this area look to..and that coming into town is really important. A destination

Jim: Right. The string we have hit on here is “Where are the bootstrap Mom & Pop entrepreneurs?” The businesses, the things we are looking for more of and yet…Carlos Rodriques and I did a presentation here back in June. I’ll give you an example, Take the permitting thing to another level. I am on the Historic Preservation Review Committee. I remember the Yankee Doodle Tap Room. They wanted to replace their free standing sign with a new one. It needed to come to our committee. It was fairly simple. We were done in 30 minutes. It had to go on for a sign variance to Zoning Board afterwards. Do the math. It was costing them more in attorney’s fees, application fees than the sign cost. A beautiful, gold leaf, green sign that has been there forever and is just being replaced. You start to say “Why does this need to go to the Zoning Baord? Why can’t we just streamline this?” You can’t put up a free standing sign without getting a use variance where you are located. Even though that is actually more appropriate than trying to fit signs on the building down at Jugtown from an architectural and preservation standpoint. So, you have minor things through out the codes, throughout the system. How are you going to get those bootstrap entrepreneurs to open
..: Well you. Generally, if a dry cleaner can’t generate the same kind of cash flow as a chain store, no matter how much the procedure is all streamlined, how will it ever make it? Is that a dumb question

Kevin: Let me propose an idea here…As I walk around here on the weekend, I notice different characteristics of the people who are on the corner of Witherspoon and Nassau…and on the corner of Pine and Nassau…and on the corner of Harrison and Nassau. And on some corners of my neighborhood, like Quarry & John…Now, all of those sections, I just sited have commercial. But they have different scales of commercial. So, you Hamilton Jewelers…You don’t go there every week to buy a diamond ring. If we are lucky, we go once or twice. So, clearly, there a regional business and they attracting people from a large region to come there. And I am sure their rent reflects that. Now, Jessica at Small World has made a successful neighborhood operation down Nassau next to your operation. There is a wonderful little vibrancy that is going on in the neighborhood. Your restaurants have a different character from here to there. Regional, neighborhood. So, in my neighborhood, on the corner of Quarry & John, there is a barber shop. In fact, the whole neighborhood used to have corner commercial businesses in the neighborhood. Why? Segregation. African Americans couldn’t come to Nassau St. to shop. What is interesting is that because of that a totally self-sufficient neighborhood developed with stores and little bars, little grocery stores and barber shops and hair salons because they had to survive, So, I want to pose this concept that maybe we can look at downtown and imagine some district area, probably including Palmer Sq, that caters somewhat local, but let’s face it, county-wide. But maybe there are other areas in the community where we can give zoning assistance to have corner retail, downstairs store, upstairs apartments. The kind of conditions we used to see on Alexander. The service zone didn’t actually disappear, the university just bought it. It is now their service zone. I was very surprised to learn that Patten Ave was the Alexander Rd of the early 20th c. That had the lumber yard. The mason supply yard. The whole block was building supplies. From Harrison to Princeton Ave. All building industry. I am sensitive to this because, I could never find a space her, I split 10 years ago and went to Montgomery. We have woodworking shops. So I know that is not going to happen again. I am not going to get a 12000SF woodworking shop. But maybe in these areas we could start to program a modest amount of office. Neighborhood scale. Allowing smaller firms some growth potential. We are going to run into friction if we decide to take downtown and extend it out 3 blocks east, north and west. Each of those existing neighborhoods is going to say “time out, I don’t want a block-long of stores”. Is there some way we can take this concept and tinker with multiple, little business neighborhood districts

Susan: I think it is a terrific idea. It puts things people need within walking distance of where they live. But how do you deal, in our old neighborhood, when you came in with your seafood store, it transformed that neighborhood, and it has continued. Many things are now happening there. But, as result of that, the whole value of the property has gone way up. How do you put together the two values? The need for low-cost retail and tremendously increasing real estate value

Jack: Can I answer that as a landlord. We were fortunate that in 1982, the landlord sold the building to us in ‘83. It was godawful...to think of where am I going to find the money. And then, from ’83 to ’87, real estate exploded. But after that, rents exploded. But if you look at rents around town, and Raoul you can attest to that, rents are pretty flat. If we took a chart of commercial rents, it is not that onerous. Quite frankly, Kevin, if were to look at both, our rental square ft, we are probably getting the same square ft at Small World. I went out after Small World. Thinking again, that it is more important for me to have a vibrant neighborhood, than it was to have a profitable one that I could retire on. My rents have really risen slowly versus taxes etc. Taxes have really increased. Taxes are far surpassing salary, sales, everything else. Things just keep on marching up. And, I as a long-term real estate owner and investor, am concerned that it is quickly and quietly eroding the cash value of your property. I can only ask for rent from Small World what they can do in business. You look around and I already have a couple of ideas for you. There are old families that have properties. They have a valuation in their head of what they are getting back in cash flow. It has not rocketed. It is more the CAM charges, the other stuff. What you pay to Palmer Square…is it 35-40%

Raoul: You are absolutely right. It really depends on the availability, the type of service. I think that is where the issue is. A lot of these buildings are old and narrow. It really goes location by location. A prime location, like Hamilton Jewelers, it is Manhattan rents

Jack: It is not indicative of the rest of the town

Raoul: Same thing at Teresa’s. It’s New York City. You know we’re told we’d never make it in New York City. Well, I think we could! [Laughter]. It depends, then. I think that is the problem. I think that is what Kevin is suggesting. When we did the Princeton Future analysis of structure, there should be not just one improvement district. The town needs two or three. Because every section is really different. For the downtown, here, maybe we need to take a look at how high? The hotel is going up to 6 stories. The plan has to be by neighborhood. Witherspoon St could have form-based zoning. The neighbors would say “This is what we want Witherspoon St to be!” Kevin: That is a very interesting point about form-based zoning. Just very quickly. So much of what people get tripped up by in the application procedure is the use variance. Use variances relate to the list of things we say you can do…so there is 4 months and $10,000 in professional fees. Form-based zoning would allow us to control what the built fabric of our environment would look like. You have to be flexible about the types of things that are programmed into those spaces so that we are not trying to decide whether the first floor is to be a bakery or an office or a bank or an apartment. We can have some guidelines. Let the market, in a sense, dictate those uses

Raoul: The hospital is leaving in a couple of years. What is that strip going to be? It should be planned now

Mark: There is a example right down near me where Tuscan Hills has announced that they are going to be leaving that space. We have people in the neighborhood say “What’s going to go there?” And we say, “we don’t know”. People say “We’d love to have a sandwich shop. We’d love to have a place you can get a bagel. You can’t get a bagel around here. They are actually looking to us, saying “Why don’t you guys try to recruit a local business to come down and do that?” I think if we did have this kind of an approach here the local community could say what it would like to have here ad have a way where it could recruit or encourage a certain type of business to come there. It’s an historic building. It’s not zoned for restaurant. So, how man parking spaces do you need and so on? There is morass of complexity that people see

Peter Morgan: I think that the University is all hopped up now on sustainability and it would be interesting to figure out how we might engage them. The town needs that, as well: “How could you contribute to sustainability in Princeton from a business standpoint to enrich the community, and to make it interesting to the students?” The students live kind of an isolated life. They eat. They study. Whatever. But if I were a student, I, personally, would rather be in Cambridge. It would be interesting to see what the students could contribute to this activity as well as the university

Allan: I am hearing people talk about form-based code and I am not certain people know what it is. It would seem that form-based code for Princeton would be a really valuable thing. Basically, you would have a tangible image of where you are going in the future and everybody understands what the town will be 20-30 years down the road. It helps decision-making enormously and it helps the approval processes enormously. The idea is that you have this vision out there and it defines a lot of what will eventually happen. I assume that it is probably a 2-year process

Kevin: The state has now authorized it

Jim: You are effectively replacing zoning which is basically listing a bunch of uses. You have bulk regulations for setbacks, height etc. You can actually leave those in place and you are effectively starting to talk about the types of building and the way buildings meet the street. You can say for a 5-story building, we generally want it to look like a 4-story building. Therefore, we want the fifth story to be lighter in color, set back. You want to be sure have a certain height on the ground floor…a certain amount of glass

Allan: A physical model of the town, 30-40 years from now

Jim: It is less concerned with what uses might be inside that building. It is more concerned with what it feels like to walk by

Kevin: In a standard zoning, you take a piece of property and you imagine it in a volume, then you carve back on an edge, setback on the side, on the front, the height limit. And within that you can do what you want. What this says is “Let’s take that shape and tailor it for each spot in the town. In this casw, we want it built close to the street. In this case, we want it set back. We want pedestrians and a bike lane. The, inside that, there would be some basic guidelines…”No slaughter houses…no strip joints…” Allan: If you look at the history of zoning, zoning came about because people wanted to separate uses. And it goes all the way back to the industrial revolution and you had offensive industries you wanted to go somewhere else. And now it doesn’t work anymore

Kevin: Property values have evolved to a point where no one is going to buy Princeton property and turn it into a petro-chemical plant

Jim: You can do regulatory reform on zoning. One of the things, and you are right, zoning had to do with use, but over time, a whole lot of things got hung in the zoning closet. Signs. Parking. So now when you are one parking space short, or a little too much with a sign…Princeton is notorious fr kicking off sign variances. In one community, we took all of the sign and other standards and not changed one of them, because it becomes a huge issue, removed them from the zoning code and placed them in ‘design guidelines’ and allowed for ‘administrative waivers’ to be granted. We took things that used to be felonies at trial by jury land use hearings and made them misdemeanors that could be plea-bargained out of court. Wanda, we will have people at the planning board say “You are changing the belief system…you are challenging beliefs”

Wanda: Princeton jumped the gun on zoning and had it before it was allowed… Jim: Pre-Euclid. You have to have a process that allows you to go to 1. Stakeholders and 2. also allows you to go out to the public at large and assure people that the can be protected. Carlos did a great job ripping at it at his June presentation for Princeton Future. We want something that is predictable, better quality. Make it easier for the small businesses. It will be a better system. It is real easy to cling to what is there

Peter: Could you get Bob to talk about what would a special improvement district might do that might deal with some of these issues? We have talked about a lot of problems

But… Jim: Yes. We have hit on all sorts of dysfunctions in the current system. We have been focused on how we might replace the current system

Bob Goldsmith: Just so know, I am a fan of downtown management. If you think about it, you have a governing body that is first of all elected by the people, the residents. And, typically, business people don’t vote. You may property in the boro. You may run a business here, but the reality is you live somewhere else. The governing body is oriented to satisfying the needs of residential constituents. So, for instance, parking…Princeton has done something to address that. But historically, it is not a priority. Fire. Garbage. Maintaining streets. Residential neighborhoods. What I have seen over the years is that special improvement districts provide a source of stable funding, giving towns a pool of capital comparable to what you see at a mall. At a mall, everyone charges common area maintenance charges. [CAM]. It is used for promotion and then there is someone who manages the mall. A SID hires someone who is focused on managing the downtown in the same way. You had mentioned getting certain types of uses. That is one of the statutory authorizations…to deal with vacant properties…to try to promote mixed uses…different types of unique uses with incentives, maybe loans and grants to a buiness that on its face won’t work and needs some start-up capital. Downtown vitality is not the priority of municipal government. It has too much else to do. You create a core group of people who focus on what the policies affecting the business community should be, you have the financial resources to do it, you put someone in charge. It is a worthwhile tool that is worthy of consideration. Another thing, just having sat at the transportation table, you could have a special improvement district that spanned the two, the Boro and the Township. And it could be funded by the two respective areas on some equitable basis. You would start to have another source of coordination between the Boro and the Township, addressing things like transportation, cooperating on issues. The threshold to establish it are some nominal findings

Peter Kann: If you think of the core of the downtown as Nassau St, half of Nassau St, the business half would contribute to this and the other half which is the university would not?…or.

Bob: I took a case to the Supreme Court of New Jersey. These are assessments. They are not taxes. There is a phenomenal difference. Nonprofits are exempt from taxes. Nonprofits are not exempt from special assessments. Now, the university might have the motivation to litigate it, but I think the decision by the NJ Supreme Court in 1999 was that they are special assessments and that tax exempt institutions are not exempt from them. The idea of a special assessment is that if a municipality puts in a new sewer system, or a street, it has the option of funding it from general taxes that everyone pays or we are going to assess those properties that will be benefited by these resources. It has to be done on an equable basis. But a special improvement district is deemed to be comparable to the assessment mechanism rather than the tax structure. It has to be used for purposes that return the value of the assessment to the people who pay the assessment. But it is not on a one to one basis. So that is the fundamental proposition. In fact, in Morristown, the major players are the hospital, anon-profit, and the county. Because of this principle we were able to negotiate meaningful payments from both the hospital and the county. About a week after I spoke at the Princeton Future meeting in September, there was an event at NJIT. It was about the involvement of universities in urban revitalization. Yale was represented. Princeton was not. Penn, Columbia, NYU, Rutgers, NJIT, UMDNJ. They are all in urban centers and their contributions to the context in which they exist is just extraordinary. There is obviously return on that investment. My sense is that the university sits on that side of Nassau St and does what it wants to do. The SID is certainly one mechanism…in just the transit context, it can really help. There is a piece of the SID legislation that, not withstanding any law or regulation to the contrary, the municipality in effectuating the power of a special improvement district can cause a road or a street to meander, can narrow it…can widen it. So, in terms of dealing with Nassau St, Rt 27 and Rt 206, it has tremendous resources. Now that provision hasn’t been litigated. But I don’t think that there is any other way but to interpret it that way. So it could be an enormous source of leverage to bring Princeton University in on a voluntary, or less than voluntary basis

Mark: Could you comment on how they are approved given that the University and Palmer Sq might have reasons not to support it

Bob: There is a set of criteria that it will improve the business community or a residential neighborhood, a general finding. And the standard is that the people paying the assessment get some benefit. It does not have to be mathematically precise. To give you an example, in 1994, the Morristown Partnership was founded. It was about the 30th SID in the state. The law was authorized, I think, in 1986. Immediately, Headquarters Plaza challenged it and another building, valued at about $5m challenged it. The Supreme Ct said “Look, if the municipality, and it can be two municipalities...we did one in Wildwood and…you know “Watch the tram, please, watch the tram, please!” that was about to fold and the business community wanted to sustain it. We modified the legislation to permit the SID to take out along term loan to operate the tram system that operates between the 2 municipalities. There is a great deal of flexibility in the statutory structure. The court said we don’t expect mathematical precision. There has to be some return on investment. The municipality is acting in good faith, fairly and reasonably. The Court said it would defer to that local judgment. It is a very limited view of the scope of judicial review

Mark: So, specifically, the Boro Council would vote it in

Bob: That is correct. You would probably want to get the cooperation of the Township governing body as well. And just understand, this was back in ’95, the trial judge said “But I want you to look, if you know Morristown, there is the Town Square, The Green. We were aggressive in establishing it, so we kind of took an octopus approach going down the various legs to include them, and we went out to 24, which is different. It is not a typical downtown. In the outlying areas, we reduced the assessment to 75% compared to the core areas where there would be streetscape and façade improvements. You can mold the policies …you can stress transit issues. You can address promotional items. Tangible as well as intangible programs that the business community and the residential neighborhoods that might be impacted can sit together and come up with what will best serve those paying the assessment

Jim: Do any of the SIDs have the incentives to get the small start-up businesses…

Bob Goldsmith: Absolutely. You can do loans, grants. There is the façade improvement. It becomes the voice of the business community. In most SIDs, the governing body must have a member on the board of the SID, so there is an inherent coordination and communication mechanism set up. Also, you can have a bank on the board so that they become a member of the process. So you get a bank to help you do façade improvements. Maybe you give a grant of $2000 and the bank will give a low-interest loan in support of it. It starts building a critical mass

Peter K: Do these usually start because the business community sees a need for it and pressures the political body to create it, or do they happen because the political body creates whether the business community wants it or not

Bob: Both ways. It is something that can be pushed down the throat of the business community. It is better if it is a cooperative effort. In Morristown, it was the business community that generated the sense for it. In other towns, it has been the governing body that has been the governing force. But often, it is change and people are adverse to change. In Red Bank, the SID is responsible for turning it into a hot place. Likewise, in Morristown, it has been a driving force. One of the key things that motivated the action was that Macy’s had been in the town from 1948 to 1993. It closed its doors and 125,000SF was vacant for 9 years. 2 yrs after it closed, the SID was created and it played a major role in working with the parking authority and other organizations to move things forward. It can be a real catalyst
…: I have worked on form-based code and I understand what we are talking about as far as neighborhood districts. But when it gets into approved uses and we are trying to encourage small business and local businesses, how do you keep large corporations from taking advantage of what we’re setting up? If we have a Starbucks in every neighborhood, it sort of defeats the purpose. We were talking before about developing neighborhood districts. One of the components might be a coffee shop. If we modify our zoning and other processes, will we open ourselves up to having big corporations in all around town
….: A SID allows things, it doesn’t mandate things

Bob: Could someone take advantage of things? They could probably do it now if they wanted to

Jim: Just changing the rules won’t get us there, even if you were to put the best code out there, you need stewards. And that is really what this management is. You need somebody who is going to go and find the right local thing that will fill in Tuscan Hills

Bob: Teaneck up in Bergen County. They don’t have a Starbucks. So they got someone who is benevolent to give a grant so that they could get their Starbucks! Starbucks has a lot of leverage and they don’t want to pay market rate
…: What is the oversight of the person who runs it

Bob: It’s a downtown manager, typically someone who has some retail or business experience. There is a board. The governing body makes certain findings. Any downtown or residential area can meet the criteria. So you create a physical area where you have established the SID. Under the statute, there is a non-profit corporation that is established by the municipality to manage this district. It can be done on a democratic basis with elections. It can be a composite of people appointed by the governing body, or the mayor. It be some elected, some appointed. Then, they typically, as part of their budget, retain someone on a fulltime or part time basis. The board makes policy and that person implements the policy
..: What about the other structures, other than the SID. DO you favor them

Bob: I think from my understanding of Princeton, a SID is a pretty good resource here. I think it’s fundamental advantage is, to answer Peter’s question, it gets the university involved. It gives you leverage to get the university involved. If not on a formal basis, in an informal basis of ‘speak softly and carry a big stick’

Wanda: Is it just the property owner that has the assessment or is it also the business

Bob: It can be a function of what the lease says
…: It could be turned over to the tenant

Bob: In some cases, it can be the tenant. In certain types of assessment it is either born by the tenant or by the owner, or, if it wasn’t addressed, it is negotiated

Jack: In a situation like Palmer Square who already has in a sense a SID, what are our roadblocks

Bob: Then you make a judgment and say “Look, they are not going to derive the full benefit of the SID, there has to be some relationship to the amount they are paying and the benefit they receive. The governing body, the board of the SID and the assessor says “What is reasonable? Maybe it is 60% because they do have a management structure in place. Maybe it is a negotiation. When New Brunswick formed its SID, rather than take on J&J and oppose it, there was a negotiation and J&J came in as part of it. They don’t need the benefits so much but they recognize that they’d derive some other benefits

Much like a negotiation with Princeton. You do have your own management but you will derive benefit

Peter K: In a case like Princeton, where in effect about a third of the town has a special improvement district which it manages reasonably effectively, right? In theory, they could become managers of the rest of the town

Bob: That is feasible

Jim: There is more than one local resident that has observed that they’d like to get Palmer Sq Management to take care of all of Nassau St

Peter K: That’s what I mean. You already have a professional management team

Kevin: I would like to point out that politically speaking, there representatives here in this room of all of the groups you are speaking about, except Palmer Square. There is no history of Palmer Sq sending any envoy to an meeting of these sorts. Always when asked, Mssrs Newton and Aboodi…say ‘no way’. This is where we start

Bob: They make a different approach when they look at the case law. It is pretty well established that they don’t have a lot…at some point, a businessman makes a prudent business judgment. If you ask an attorney, and the attorney make an intelligent study of the case law, they are saying “You can go and try to make noise about it, but ultimately, you are going to be unsuccessful in a challenge here.” That would suggest the value would be in a negotiation with Palmer Sq. saying “We’d like to work cooperatively, tell us what you think is fair. We have in our mind an idea of what is fair. We don’t think you should be at 100%. Typically, it is about 10¢/SF on retail property

Jim: How is that perceived relative to the issue you brought up before about rent not being the biggest prohibition

Jack: I mean just taxes and insurance on a stripped-down model is $8.50. At Palmer Sq, I am thinking it is about $20/SF CAM charge over there. Collectively
..: I believe it is
…: How long do they last? Forever

Bob: They can be created with a sunset provision. Typically, they are not. They have been around for 20 years. At some point they reach the end of their useful life. There is a great deal of flexibility to do different things

Jack: Is it 10¢ on commercial space? Or 10¢ on commercial rent? And this space. Would it be 10¢ on 40,000 SF or

Bob: Interesting. Morristown made the judgment to exclude residential properties within the downtown. One of the challenges was that you couldn’t exclude residential properties. Well, if you think about it, it is more of a business-oriented program. Not always. The fact is, if you are living in a home or apartment, you will benefit. Improved safety and security. Improved perception of the community. Maybe the udgment is made that they be included at a discount, like Palmer Sq. It is not precise. It is what sounds fair and reasonable

Jim: And some communities have extended a small assessment to the entire residential tax base to get buy-in

Bob: Yes. Cranford did that. Some communities have done very large districts. You know, if the downtown is improved, the residents benefit

Kevin: Some statistics I have heard for the administrative costs of SIDs. Cranford is around $90k/yr

Bob: Cranford is unique because it is run as part of government. It is quite effective. It is the only SID run out of the municipal building in NJ

Peter K: If you have 90 businesses on Nassau St, it is $1000 each

Kevin: At Rahway, which has a sophisticated multi-staff operation. It organizes big weekend events. I think it is $450k

Mark: Westfield’s entire budget is $450k and that includes a full-time executive director

Kevin: A proposal that was studied for Princeton around 3 years ago was around $350k, I think. It had a package of street cleaning…

Bob: If I were here, I would work something out with Princeton University to bring them in

Jack: A couple of years ago, I got the sense that we could win them into the project, Especially now that they are across the street with us now. It is different

Peter K: Like any big institution they react to some combination of carrots and sticks

The carrot is to improve the downtown for all of us and the university is among the beneficiaries, the stick would be that we can assess you anyway. So, why not do it voluntarily. And, by the way, there is enough pressure in town here to try to get the university to pay taxes, that the ought to want to cooperate

Bob: If they do it voluntarily and it is a meaningful contribution, you could do what we do in Morristown for the hospital, we give them lead advertising credit as the sponsor of many events. In the event of a challenge, we sat down with them and gave them the cases and they realized “Let’s work something out”

Peter Kann: It is not very good pr for the university to be opposing improvement of the town in which the university resides when they have $14-15 billion

Jim: I am going to flow us into our last topic. How might consolidation help? This can all occur regardless of consolidation. We can do a multi-municipality special improvement district that would be untouched by consolidation

Bob: There is a proposal for a walkway along the Hudson River Waterfront. I have always been a proponent of multi-municipality improvement district is the way to complete and maintain the project. As for consolidation, NJ has 566 municipalities. There is hope because 10 years ago, there were 567. [Laughter]. It was __ Township that had about 10 people merging into Hardwick Twp

Peter: So your point is that you obviously don’t need consolidation to set up a SID that transcends those borders

Bob: So once I heard Peter’s comment about 2 municipalities and one political party is absurd. It is utterly irrational

PeterK: So there might be other reasons to have consolidation but not in order to have a SID, right

Bob: Right

Jim: There have always been reasons why it is not… Kevin: I think it is possible that a political analysis could be as follows: The SID would assist some people in the Boro who have reservations over consolidation from the standpoint that they fear that the downtown will lose a level of focus and intensity that downtown needs to survive

…: Yes

Kevin: So if a 1.7 mile municipality turns into a 20-mile municipality, all of a sudden, the downtown is really a little, small part of that. And the Boro residents, many people that I talk to, are sensitized to this debate. And everytime a civic arm comes up for discussion, it becomes downtown versus shopping center. In my concept of a merged town, those are two components of what I outlined earlier: the shopping center is a neighborhood commercial area but the downtown is still critical. Maybe the SID would allow some people to say, “Yeah, OK, we’re lookin’ out for downtown now, I can relax.” …: I think the reaction to consolidation is at a much more personal level

Jim: The building we are sitting in if we had merged. This building was being proposed in a parking lot in the shopping center. If there hadn’t been Boro residents who felt VERY strongly, it would be there. Nobody trusted ‘those people’ to be in charge of ‘my library’….’my urban island in the center’. “if they are talking about doing that, they are not in touch with my values.” A huge fight

Kevin: I am just saying Jack: So you are saying a downtown SID might be a protector Peter K: It is a step. A logical step towards consolidation. But it doesn’t require consolidation

Bob: It might facilitate it

Kevin: If it were done well and people said “Oh, wow! Everybody is looking out for downtown and everything is under control.” They wouldn’t be so worried about it being such a little piece of a large pie
..: Is consolidation on the table now

Kevin: It is always on the table, But I will say this. Township Committee has taken a real buzz to it. And on Boro Council, best I can count: two are in favor. 2 are opposed. I don’t know the 5th. And I am willing to discuss it and need to be convinced that the Boro will get a good deal

Peter: Are taxes higher in the Boro or the Township? Boro, right
…: That’s my bet

Peter: Because so much of the land is non-profit, right
…: The Boro provides more services than the Township does

Jim: We pay for the Township to have a downtown! That’s how the SID…You have to find ways to…you know…little cartoons that say..”How nice you Boro people pay for my downtown!” Peter: Is this a stupid question? Is there partial consolidation

Jim: We are already doing it more than any other set of municipalities

Kevin: We have half a dozen agencies that are joint

Bob: You have more than many other… Peter: Police? They would be a logical one, right
…: Engineering…Administrative Kevin: We ought to fix one every two years. Then it would be done in a while

Jim: Kevin, is there any negotiating position you can take right now since the Governor has made this logical push for consolidation. The new committee. Marvin is on the committee. Nobody is biting anywhere in the State. Can we go and get more aid or something

Kevin: My sense is that if we came up with any deal, the Governor is dying to pick off one town to point to everyone as a model of how they figured out after 60 years. Why can’t Chester figure it out

Bob: Chatham Boro and Chatham Twp merged school systems. Politically, it is very interesting

Sheldon: Time for coffee… Jim: Thank you all. [inaudible]…call their search for tenants “Casting”…They search for unique businesses…for second operations, the way Jim recruited Small World. The get totally involved with the business operator. They want a business plan. They review it with you. They want restaurants in smaller spaces because they 2-3 flips on a Wednesday night. So they operate on a completely different philosophy. They know that the ice cream’s flavor has to do with whether you will spend a $1000 bucks a SF. Very proactive

Mark: A developer in Jersey City said to me “If I have good restaurants and retail services, then I will sell my condos.” I just think it is the mechanics of it all that befuddles people. How do you navigate through all of this to recruit the right business. Jack was able to own his own building so he was able to do that. But ho does a neighborhood recruit a business to come in? Makes sense to me

Jim: You have to hire the right person

Mark: The boards are usually constructed to have representation of all…business owners, non-business owners, residents. You have all of these different categories

End of session

Housing Table

David Kinsey: Good morning. I am a community planner in private practice. I work on affordable issues all around the state. I am a Boro resident. Let’s first go around the table and introduce ourselves and see where we go

Kristin Appelget: I am the Director of Public Affairs at Princeton University

Miguel Centeno: Hi, I am on the faculty at the University. Live in the Boro

Barrie Royce: I am Chair of the Boro Zoning Board

Hendricks Davis: I am a local resident in the Witherspoon-Jackson Neighborhood. Home owner. Tax payer

Jim Floyd: I am all of the things Hendricks said and also a founding member of Princeton Community Housing

Alan Hegedus: Taxpayer and President of the School Board

Ron Nielsen: Resident Curmudgeon

Fran Benson: Boro resident & taxpayer

Yan Bennett: I live in the Boro. I work locally so housing is very important to me

Sheldon Sturges: Managing Director, Princeton Future, Boro resident

David: The Princetons have about 10,000 dwelling units. About 9% are incomerestricted to low or moderate income households. This, in great part, is due to the work of Princeton Community Housing over the decades, as well as the Boro Housing Authority which income restricted units in the Boro and in the Township. And there are some other units that have been provided by the Boro, the Township and some nonprofits. There are also 18 units that are income-restricted to middle income households. This is really rare in the NJ context. That is part of the Boro initiative of the late 80’s and early 90’s for developments that are higher than that low and moderate income cut-off. About 56% of all existing units in our community are single-family detached. 21% are attached structures. One or two units next to each other. 5% of the units are in apartment buildings with 50 units or more. In addition to traditional housing, our population is about 30,000 people and that includes some 22% of the population that lives in college dormitories. The great bulk of those are in the Boro. 46% of the Boro population lives in college dorms. Not just Princeton, but the Theological Seminary and the Choir College. There are also two group homes for the disabled in the Township. And there is one transitional facility for the homeless in the Boro. About 38% of the housing in the Princetons is rented

Fran: How does that compare to national

David: I think it is comparable. The national average is that 75% is home ownership. But that has been dropping. Our challenge this morning is to talk about existing structures. How well do these structures work in terms of the issue of housing

Barrie: By structures you mean what?…Physical entities called houses, or.

David: More the organizational structures of the community. The public structures. The non-profit structures. Governmental. Non-governmental

Barrie: What is the issue we are really trying to address in a town like Princeton? People are housed here. There are homeless people here. It seems naively to me that the trouble is not lack of places and entities to look after them, but it is the distribution of affordability…having a spectrum of prices available. It is a major problem in a place like Princeton that tends to gentrify at an appalling rate, unless you have constraints

Fran: And age as well. Because you want to have a diverse age group. As a senior, I am concerned about the fact that so many seniors have to move out of town when they can’t handle their large houses

Barrie: That is a property tax issue

Fran: It is not just that. No. It is also because people who have raised children in a house say at a certain point: ”I can’t handle this house. And there is no place for me to go.” Miguel: Has the Boro done, or has Princeton Future done…What percent…what sectors of the population are not being addressed? Is it low income? Is it middle income? Is it retirees? Where is the funnel not working? One example I happen to know because of recruiting at the University: if you are in your 30-40s with children, it is very hard to come into Princeton to live. If you are single, you can get university housing. But if you have kids and you’re not making the kind of money that is required, it is too difficult. That is just one niche. I am just wondering how many of those niches are there

Jim: Even the niches you mention are little diverse in that ethnicity enters into that difficulty as a major factor. Even at your university, you are not completely moving people around simply because they need. You move people around because of who they are. So, that’s a major factor. Relating to structures, as the Zoning Board member will attest to, are we structured to address our population, our human needs, even as we look at zoning? I throw it out as something that, in my opinion, should be looked at. There seems to be, even in the zoning aspect, kind of a moving towards the multiple without a regard for the traditional or its impact upon...or its impact on the group over there that is going to talk about transportation. Somehow, we have to start addressing this thing holistically. After all, we are only talking about people. You can’t just say ‘housing’. You can’t just say ‘difficulties at the university’. It is a generic situation. Not only in this community but in many other communities. Structure has a lot to do with it. And with structure, you are getting right back to the people who enact those things that tell you how you’re going to do what that effect people. However, we are besieged with variances which is unto the structural entity that lets you do those kind of things that may not be in the best interest of people, but will be in the best interest of an entity. That’s a lot to say. But I have lived it a long time

Ron: Do you have an example

Jim: Oh sure. Go down to Quarry St. and look at that monstrosity

Ron: You mean the Hillier monstrosity

Jim: Well…I don’t look at it that way. I look at it as part of the structure because it is permissible to do that thing

Barrie: It is offensive. It was permitted

Jim: That is why I am saying the structure is more than a building. It is that which implements and puts things forward. And, in this instance, that structure should be looked at

Hendricks: For me, the question of addressing things structurally also, along with the human factor, brings in the economic factor. And I was wondering about the numbers you gave us. Number one, in terms of rental properties, if that could be brought down further, where are the vast majority of rental properties located in the Boro & Township. Number two, to tie that economic question in: something I have always wondered about, having lived on John St for 25 years now, the mix of owner-occupied and absenteeowner owned homes in our neighborhood and in the various other neighborhoods. I was looking at the Princeton Magazine here. They had an issue of the neighborhoods of Princeton. I don’t know whether it was a good thing or not, but Witherspoon Jackson was not one of those neighborhoods that the editor or the writer knew about. My basic question is can we bring that down even more? For me that would then open up a discussion of how we approach the issue of structuring housing and opportunity for all people in the community. I want to live in a community that is vibrant. We have a lot of that in many different neighborhoods. But there people who work in the Princetons who can’t afford to live here

David: Let me provide a few more facts. The Boro is about fifty-fifty renter owneroccupied. 50%. Actually 56% according to the 2000 Census

Miguel: Does that include the university

David: Yes. All the numbers include the university but not the dorms

Barrie: The University is a mini-market

David: That was going to be my next point. Not the dorms. This is a very unusual community in that there 100s of units owned by and rented by the University and the Seminary and the Institute for Advanced Study. It really skews the housing market

Barrie: Does it include the purchase-re-purchase scheme of the university

David: All of those are included

Jim: It may skew it if you are looking at here separately in the housing context. But it doesn’t skew it. It exacerbates it, if you look at it holistically. The mobility people…the transportation people. We can not say “OK, fine, that’s university…it doesn’t count in the mix.” It does count in the overall. It counts in the whole. That is my point. It counts with this gentleman here, in the school system. While we can say “That is an exacerbation, and it is” the point I am trying to make is, we can not look at things as separate entities. This is a holistic community

Barrie: True

Jim: Let’s include that and recognize that that contributes to …and then you add the other 5 things it contributes too

Kristin: Doesn’t it go back to what Miguel was saying…”What are the niches that have and have not been filled out?” to find out where the problems are. I don’t want to use the word ‘problem’…Where the opportunities are. Where the places are

Jim: Oh yes. If you consider it an opportunity. The fact that that is a situation there. It is an opportunity and an area that should be addressed and not cast aside as something that is unique and different

Barrie: There is another situation, I believe, that we should put into the pot. I believe your point is a good one. The real issue that I think is driving a lot of the discomfort is that Princeton, ie. the hole in the donut, is a finite community. That for historic and other reasons is an attractive one to live in and that is pushing land prices up and up and up. And that has a very big impact on the nature of housing that people want….the availability of housing with respect to income. And it is, in a way, the closed nature of the system that you are dealing with that I think represents an exacerbation of a real problem

Miguel: What I am trying to get at. Maybe this is just my data-driven social sciences whatever… is a simple question: How many people who want to live Princeton, can’t afford to do so? And, are they distributed equally across the population by age, race, income class etc.? What I am concerned about, what Barrie is saying, Princeton is becoming an Aspen. If you want to connect it to transport, there is probably not a single secretary in the University that lives in Princeton. One of the reasons you have a traffic jam on all of these roads is that at 8:30, what used to be called the pink-collar staff of the university is coming in. Most of the blue-collar staff is also coming in

Alan Hegedus: Try 307 teachers in our school system

Miguel: Yes! The number of my kids teachers who live in Pennsylvania. That can be a preference and all that. But I wonder if by becoming an Aspen where the cops have to migrate, the teachers have to commute for 2 hours. Are we becoming that? Or, is that just my seeing something that is not occurring. I just want to know… Alan: I’d like to build on that very point. I think that in observing the planning in Princeton, for a couple of decades now, this financial overlay…you know: “Let’s not become a golden ghetto”…Yet we are. We are becoming that

Ron: Especially in the Tree Streets

Alan: If you have structure and if you have the financial overlay…the structure drives property taxes, or is it the reverse? It is inexorable in a demand situation. It is a very attractive community and lots of people want to live here. The demand drives prices up

Unless structure stands in the way. And, the only way that can happen is subsidy. That gets back to taxes as well. We dwell a lot on structure, ignoring the impact…or. the way it will be impacted by the necessities of the senior citizens, the tax payers. A mini example in the school system, for the first time in 17 years our school budget was denied. We had to cut a million dollars from it. Next week we will have a budget meeting. The biggest elephant in the room is “What to do we do in property-tax constrained New Jersey, and more locally, in Princeton…and with the economic crisis?” We can not sustain the excellence of our school system unless that structural/financial element is somehow satisfied. The guys over here will be talking about a grocery store downtown. Who’s going to talk about a grocery store on such high property value? And a very limited marketplace. What will the prices have to be? Nobody will buy. People will go elsewhere because you are bucking the financial realities

Sheldon: It is public land and the space in the agreement is subsidized for such a use by the public already

Alan: That’s my point. It is subsidized

Barrie: It is a million dollars an acre

Jim: May I address a conclusion that everyone has made, including Alan. Would you hazard a guess who the largest taxpayer in the form of a pilot is in the township is? It is Princeton Community Housing. Which is, in Alan’s concept, kind of a subsidized, ne’erdo- well group of people up there who we all pay for

Alan: Strike the ne’er-do-well

Jim: I got that from a Township Committee meeting when I was Mayor. They were telling us “You can’t do that for a group of ne’er-do wells!” Yes, there is some degree of subsidy by HUD and others, but it is the third or fourth contributor in a pilot form in the township! So let us not completely discount that there is a contribution made by folk who are subsidized to some extent. Let me go back. When we first tried to do an openoccupancy housing complex, no one would sell us the land in Princeton. No one. That complex is in West Windsor. Then we were able to build on Walnut & Dempsey and the other places. When you look at the 300 or so units up there at PCV. We just completed the new Harriet Bryan House at Elm Court II. Where will those people go when suddenly we say “You are not part of this population” that makes Princeton what it is. Secondly, I mention structure. We don’t have a tax for affordable housing but we do have a tax for open space. Like my friend Obama says “We give to the rich more”. We’ll subsidize their 5-acre plot. I pay a tax and you do for that open space. So when I talk about structure, I talk about the structure that implements. The structure that says “For you, it is best if we do it this way.” That is my perception of structure. Not a building. But that which facilitates. That’s what we have to look into

David: We have talked about a variety of housing needs, senior housing needs, working folk needs…secretarial assistant-type income levels. There are perhaps some gaps in our community, Boro & Twp together. Perhaps as Miguel asked the question: Has anyone looked at the various niches? ..is an answer to how well the existing structures are working. That perhaps they are not working. Is everyone satisfied with the governmental structures in our community as they address housing issues

Barrie: I think the complexity of having 2 governmental structures is …because one government doesn’t trust the other one. Perhaps for good reason. And, in fact, I think the population is very different in the 2 environments. That makes it even more complicated

Hendriks: I have raised the question a couple of times. Once here. Once at Boro Council, about the Housing Authority. If it is set up or structured in a way that other municipalities’ housing authorities are so that it can develop housing opportunities not just for low income but in partnership with private entities in specific areas. To answer your question: Are we satisfied? I’d say “No”! Because there are opportunities. In fact, I think I said at one meeting “There is gold in them thar hills”. As a way of saying that if we establish entities that have the authority that have the resources. Then we as citizens mandate that it be allowed to get done. So that would be one thing that I’d say

Miguel: I think the issue is not whether they are working or not. I think the issue is “Do we have any idea what the hell the are?” I may be a stereotypical over informed voter. And I don’t know what is going on. I have no idea how the Boro is deciding things. I have no idea how the Township is deciding things. I know the two of them exist and they don’t like each other. All of a sudden there is this bland opacity. How are decisions being made? The best example is this thing. The only rumor I haven’t heard is that the Masons were behind it. Nobody knows how it got built. Why it got built. Where the money is going. I think we need to know that. What happens, then, is you gt the different communities suspecting that one got the better of the other. The wealthy think we are subsidizing the poor. The poor think the wealthy are getting a better deal. And everybody blames the university. And often they might be right

Alan: For a long time, we have tolerated the least transparent governance of any community I’ve ever lived in

Kristin: If we go back to the conversation we had at the beginning…of structures, of improvement districts, of authorities, development corporations. This square and garage was all done without any of the above. So was there a conscious decision to do this downtown redevelopment which in most other communities would have been caused by a development corporation, an improvement district or some sort of parking or housing authority? When the Boro kept control for themselves, was there a conscious decision that we could look back to so we could understand? Then apply it to the current situation

Barrie: The history of the development started with 2 or 3 forms. The Library needed to expand

Kristin: Right

Barrie: That was a private group, in a sense, trying to do something. They had a site in town. That seemed to be the best place to rebuild. Though people in the Township will give you an argument on that one. There has been the long-lived complaint that there has not been enough parking. There was a surface parking lot where we are sitting. There was a feeling that a multistory parking lot would make a less aggressive footprint on the quality of life in the center of town. And originally this plaza was not going to be there. The garage was going to come forward. And then the dwelling units… Hendricks: So would it be fair to say, number one, that there is a de facto housing development authority that at least in some particular instances includes the governing authority which may or may not be completely transparent and private developers. Would it be fair to say, number two, that it happens reactively as opposed to proactively. The proactive is now the private developer. Then the reactive entity is whoever has the deed to that property

David: Plus a layer of government. Let me just rattle off the key actors. The private sector makes major decisions. It is constrained by government in terms of land use regulation. We have master plans and zoning ordinances both for the township and the boro. Those that wish to do something that is not allowed by the zoning ordinance go to the Twp or Boro board of adjustment. That is the role of government. In addition to private developers, we have these quasi public non-profits of which the university and the seminary are the biggest examples. Then there is the non-profit sector, quasi-public sector of Princeton Community Housing, the biggest example that develops, owns operates and manages almost 500 units. More than half of the income restricted units. The second biggest is the housing authority which is officially established by the Boro. But for quirks of history and difficulties of availability of land, about half of its units are physically in the Twp. It is an example of cooperation and the coming together of this community. And then there is this redevelopment complex where we are now. The Boro used existing state law that allow the government to do a study and with the help of the Planning Board designate an ‘area in need of redevelopment’, that is a term of art. Then certain powers can be exercised, such as bringing to the project lands that it owned. The Boro owned the parking lots and could create this public-private venture. The redevelopment plan had to go through the land use process that was adopted publicly, and that plan became, in effect, the zoning that governed how this land would be redeveloped. So to answer the question about housing: we have private land owners. We have non-profit, quasi-public land owners and we have developers who are private middle sector, and we have public agencies that have redevelopment powers they can exercise…and we also have a regional planning board. But because of quirks of NJ law, we have two different housing elements of those master plans…to comply with the Mt Laurel affordable housing obligation. So they are addressed separately by the Boro and the Twp. 2 different housing elements. One land use element. We all know that we have lots of government in our community. My sense, then, this morning is that the answer to our first question: how well do our existing structures work. “The answer is not well enough.” Is that a fair summary

Jim: Yes

Barrie: There is a corollary to that: we really don’t know what the hell they are doing

Kristin: We don’t want to say to PCH or HABOP that we don’t think you function well, because that implies something about how they operate. They probably function well independently under their own guidelines and goals. But when we are talking about the whole community, it doesn’t seem as if we are in the sandbox together

David: All of the key actors… Barrie: Te zoning board doesn’t really have much to do with.

David: They are judges

Barrie: They normally only make judgments that are small perturbations Alan: Isn’t it true that we have a lot of structure. We have had a lot of priority given to structure. We have structure upon structure in this town. Bottom line, this morning, we say “What about outcome? Are we satisfied with outcome?” Miguel: I get to live in this little paradise on the Tree Streets. So, as far as I am individually concerned yes, I am very satisfied. What the community could be. What the community should be. Those are other questions

Hendricks: I think it is a question of outcomes. I think that is something you could take a hard look at

Alan: You said there were 1000 community housing units

David: There are about 900 low and moderate units out of approximately 10,000 in the community

Alan: What do we think of that number

…: I grew up in Princeton Public Housing. It is really, really nice. I don’t know about access to it. But what is there is pretty good

Alan: How do we know whether that is a good number

David: From a New Jersey perspective, it is an exemplary number. To answer Kristin’s question, it does not include the University-owned units, many of which are available to folks of those income levels. But they are not included in that 900 number because they are not available to the general public

Hendricks: That is looking at it in a static way

Alan: Bottom line, after all of the decades of work, what do we think so far

Ron: Sounds like a reasonable number. What do you to make it..20-30-50%

Hendricks: The total outcome is one product. Another outcome would be the quality of life that exists. A third outcome would be the ratable that is produced. And I’d say as taxpayers, we do not feel good about that outcome. It is not producing, for many reasons, one being that 49% of the land can’t be taxed

Alan: Especially when netted against the cost to supply it in the first place

Hendricks: Once you look at the outcomes, then you start to consider How can we plan structures that will build towards positive outcomes in the variety of areas that we need. One of which is rateable

David: That leads to our second question. We have a lot of actors in terms of structure. Working together is something they could probably do better. Are there new structures that might help? Are there new governmental-private sector partnerships that might better address a variety of housing issues

..: Sure Barrie: You need to define what the objectives are before we try to answer that question. I think there is a lot of difference between a steady state community and one that is going to grow. I mean, living in the Boro, there a number lots that will become two lots and there are small houses that will become big house. By and large, it is a built out community. The challenge there is what the stead state looks like. You could take singe family homes, knock them down and put in a big apartment building. That’s a possibility. Those issues, I think, don’t get enough discussion

Ron: And we’re gonna do that under the New London eminent domain law! Which will take it out of the Witherspoon Jackson Neighborhood. 10-12 story apartment houses

Jim: You are virtually back to, historically, one of the structures that didn’t work. And I dare say it was in the back of the mind of our elected officials. The structure then was that which dictated that this a neighborhood in dire need of redevelopment. Blight. And the only person well there were two people, the university itself, because they screwed up in their representation, and Mr. Griggs. That was a structure that was an authority. Authorities, my view and experience has been, they work under a guise. That authority purely represented the university which at that time owned Palmer Square. The declaration of blight and demolition was one that declared blight all the way down to Green St. Tearing those buildings down. Turning them over to the university, er, or Palmer Square and building garden-type apartments from Quarry St on down. The udge found that there was undue influence because the university had several members of their administration on Boro Council. And they also found that there was a screw up in the way it was presented. There was a guy by the name of Hap Hazard. Well, that was his nickname. So that was an authority and under the veil was Palmer Sq and the University

Ron: That wouldn’t be the rule today, with the New London decision of the US Suprem Court

Jim: I don’t know whether it would be the rule or not. We’re pretty good at disguising in this community. That is my fear, quite frankly. That is an experience. Now I am not saying you can’t do better with an authority. But first off, tell me better than what

David: I think we need to focus on particular kinds of authorities

Yan: I am a new resident. My husband and I moved here in December, I live on Markham. I have never seen so many structures, so many governmental entities running such a small area. The Twp is like another state. There needs to be more communication. I don’t know if there should be another structure. Can’t there be more interagency agreement that they should all talk to each other? Let’s just get down and figure out what we want to do. Project it out 10 years from now. And then just do it

Alan: I think that that is a very solid point. A better task is one of consolidation and simplification of structures that we have built layer after layer that have arrived at a point where the reputation of Princeton from a developer’s perspective is a costly slow place to do business. To break through and get approvals. I had recent experiences with that over at the golf course where we built a new club house. More recently, we spent $80,000,000 on the schools…even on the schools. We labored getting the kind of help and approvals. We superimpose on ourselves costs and time with the structures we have. Consolidate. Simplify. Clarify

David: Since the ‘C’ word has been raised why don’t we ust talk about municipal consolidation? Might that help address the variety of housing issues we’ve talked about which I think can be summarized as a greater variety choice of housing, physical types, ownership types

Ron: It would speed the 12-story projects

David: How

Ron: Because the Township being bigger than we are would outvote us. And they don’t want it there, so they will say “OK, fine. We will approve the central business district for high-rise housing.” Since that is not in the old Twp they don’t lose any support b dumping it on the Boro

Jim: That is not the history

Sheldon: Could I ask each of us, in turn, to answer David’s question. It’s an important question, so if you could each just go around…Kristin… Alan: Repeat the question, please… David: Would Municipal Consolidation help to address the housing issue, defined as having a greater variety, diversity and choice of housing to address the housing needs we have talked about. And varying demands for housing in the community

Sheldon: I think each person ought to say 2 sentences

Fran: I was always for consolidation. I was in the Boro. One of my neighbors who was violently against it, as soon as it lost, moved to the Township. It certainly, to me, makes sense. This community should be working together

Ron: No

Alan: When people talk about Consolidation, they typically talk about cost efficiency. That’s wrong. We achieve most of that with 18-20 joint agencies, including the schools. Point two: if consolidation means efficiency of operations and better government. I’m all for it

Jim: Consolidation. Totally. It is a strange dichotomy have the schools consolidated but there is representation from the Boro and representation from the Twp on the school board which is so stupid. So there is no consolidation down there, they each speak their own mind

Alan: Jim. We can talk about that later. We act as one school board

Sheldon: I think there should be consolidation. I think the interests of the downtown could be best served by forming a special improvement district

Jim: Just speak to consolidation not this other… Sheldon: To speak to Ron’s point that there is concern amongst Boro residents about the future of the downtown and what it becomes. If the majority of the votes go to people in the historic Township, you lose that control. A special improvement district can help with its own plan and build out

Jim: It could also address the 5 acre lots in the township. You are so provincial when you say it will benefit this thing down here. Consolidation has to look at it holistically. All the land that is down there. What little land is up here. And think in terms of the whole. The people

Hendricks: My honest response to the question is “I don’t know!” I don’t know if it would be a good thing or would not be a good thing. If we are looking at the area comprehensively, I can see that there are some really positive reasons to look at it again. Open and transparent. One of the things that I mentioned in this very room 5 or 6 meetings ago, I think some of the categories we have still are not right. We are talking about Downtown. I said it should be economic development. There are other economic centers. We do have a downtown. We do have a shopping center. We do have various corridors that …

Jim: Jugtown

Hendricks: So I think that some of the categories are not structured appropriately. So if we could work on those things, the I would find that consolidation is a good thing

Barrie: I am very skeptical about the benefits of consolidation because I am very skeptical about the politicians we have running both of our entities. The problems are manageable with goodwill with 2 or 1 organizations. I have voted both ways actually

Miguel: Are you allowed to do that? I thought it was a one-vote system

Jim: It follows the Chicago model: early and often

Miguel: I would say the ‘C’ word is not consolidation but clarification so we actually know what is going on. I teach state development. If anyone should be able to understand this, I should! I have no idea. The other ‘C’ word is competition. And I say this as a lifelong Democrat. There is absolutely no competition of ideas, of proposals, of anything out there. Why don’t we simplify the process and actually have an intellectually competitive process. This is what I want to get done. These are the costs. Theses are the benefits. It would be nice to have that

Ron: No one is willing to give anything

Jim: That is right

Yan: I have been reading in Town Topics. I understand what the consolidation argument is

Hendricks: We had a vote, what was it, ten years ago

Jim: We have had 3 votes

Yan: I think consolidation would be appropriate., with a caveat. What makes Princeton Princeton, and I am a little biased, but it is the Boro and the University. And this is what is special about Princeton. I think it is necessary to preserve the character of the Boro. To do that

Ron: Why change?

Yan: Economic efficiency I think. To lessen the layers of government. I am a Democrat, don’t get me wrong, but I think we are interfering with the proper performance of the government here. With consolidation, the caveats: writing into laws certain things. For instance, if they decide to do something that affects the Boro, then at least one councilman who lives in the Boro has to approve of it. Put in those safeguards, legislatively, to protect the Boro. It is possible. I think it will take a lot of effort. The time of Boro government is fading. We need to move forward.
..: That sounded pretty republican to me! Just kidding

Yan: Possibly the Twp would have a reciprocal protection as well

Hendricks: You’d have council people from various wards

Kristin: Specifically to the issue we are talking about, housing, that having spent, during the 2 years I have been at the university, in more meetings about housing than I can even remember, that I have to believe hopefully that consolidation, at some level, would improve efficiency and allow the complex discussions to take place with some more, I don’t want to say ‘cooperation’ but it would be more efficient perhaps. More effective. There are so many levels. The discussion gets hung up on the fact there is some arbitrary municipal law drawn on a map that creates an inability to solve some of these issues. So many times, these discussions take place and it comes back to: “That’s the Boro. That’s the Township.” And everyone ust walks away from the table and nothing gets resolved. I have to believe that with the right protections for people in the Boro, relative to housing, it could improve

Barrie: The problem you identify is currently a soluble problem. To my view, the biggest example of things being fouled up is the hospital property. It is about to come out on the housing market. There is this line that goes through it. It was suggested by a committee that the zoning for that be made transparent to the barrier. And of course, the 2 municipalities in their infinite wisdom, let us call it, decided that that shouldn’t be the case. There is an abrupt zoning change there. It is assinine! That is the failure of local government

Hendricks: I am interested in hearing where consolidation has worked

David: First, my opinion, consolidation would be very helpful for a lot of reasons. I voted for it lst time. One of the things I did was to work out an agreement with the Boro, the Township and the State Council of Affordable Housing so that the housing obligations of the two separate municipalities would not be adversely affected since some had raised the issue that that was an impediment to consolidation. It became a non-issue

Alan: It is a reverse way to look at it but consolidation has worked extraordinarily well in our own school system. We have a massively high achievement in performance. It could not have been today without having been consolidated

Ron: But that is pretty standardized. If we look at something like the police. The Township police problem is to protect mostly against burglaries and break-ins and crimes of that type. The problems we have here, at most shoplifting, mostly the police here are a presence that calms things down. They appear at the kiosk whenever guys with purple hair show up

Jim: That isn’t quite true. I don’t want to debate that issue. But it isn’t quite true. The Police Chief at an open house meeting at First Baptist Church said “We have to call upon two police from the Township to bail us out because we were overloaded that night. We didn’t even have people on the street, they were all in court appearances.” Hendricks: We don’t just have burglaries in the Township! I always relate the story that I moved from Newark to Princeton 31 years ago. I lived in a ground floor apartment in Newark and was never broken into once. Within 3 years of moving to the Boro was broken into each time. So it is a myth. There are law enforcement needs in both entities. Can we effectively address those needs by consolidating. I think that is one thing that has been on the agenda

Miguel: What I like about the consolidated schools, I know that if my kid has problems, we could go to the principal of the school. If that doesn’t work, I know where to go. I can go to a single building. If I have a problem with my house or housing. We are landlords. We have a rental property. I have no idea. If I have to go to that Boro building or that Township building. Do I go see Hillier because he seems to build everything in town. If consolidation would bring simplicity. Simplicity. You go to this building and will be sent to one office or another. We have all these buildings. All these authorities you were listing. Not only is it insane, it is disempowering. It means there are 4 lawyers in town who know how to do this. If you don’t have one of those 4 lawyers, forget it. You are not going to be able to build or do whatever. Forget it

David: I don’t detect a full consensus, but I Jim: There is a leaning towards… David: There is a leaning that the existing system could work better…I am trying to focus on the housing aspect…And, secondly, that efforts at municipal consolidation would make resolution of housing issues easier. More efficient. Better. More understandable. Is that a fair summary

Jim: Yes

Alan: As much as you will ever get in this town

David: It is important to have a sense of this group. And then I think a recognition and I think that there has some useful information shared today about how the existing structures do work: The major role of Princeton Community Housing. With all kinds of difficulties and challenges of its own, it is a huge…there are 500 units. That’s impressive. And the University has its own, literally, 100s of units

Jim: And that PCH is a contributor to the tax base

Alan: We can be more proud of the things that have been done

David: We also talked about where we are now: the redevelopment. It is a complex process that did produce housing including income-restricted affordable housing in the Witherspoon House. And more will be located in the next phase on Tulane St. That is one form of governmental structure, using redevelopment powers. There were others that were mentioned last time. A parking authority, believe it or not, can do housing. In the Morristown example, the parking authority has built lots of parking structures and some of them have housing on top, on front, as part of them. That can be done as well

Kristin: Why in a community where we have a housing authority…and PCH…would we create a parking authority to build housing

Jim: It is a fair question only because this entity we are thinking about downtown is the very entity that thwarted the type of housing structure that David is talking about. We in community housing had housing over on Spring St. Bob Geddes drew up the plan. We were going to do just that. A combination. And who thwarted it? The downtown business entity, specifically Orin Jack Turner. And, sociologically, we are supposed to have people near things. Seniors especially

David: In terms of history, what you talking about is about 1980

Sheldon: 1978

Jim: 1978, yes

David: What was then a parking lot there was a proposal to build senior housing. And the Boro was going to make it available. It was rejected by local referendum

Jim: Bob Cawley. It came to a vote because, as you know, to get something on the ballot when you are dealing with public property, it isn’t necessarily citizens. It is based on property values

Kristin: We have too many structures that are working at loggerheads with each other. Why would we…

Jim: That would have been an excellent consolidation idea: both structures and authority

David: Yes. We do have a Housing Authority. And one of the questions is “Why can’t the Authority be a partner and do more development?” Kristin: It can

David: There is no statutory impediment. It is more the organizational will, desire, push to do that

Hendricks: All of those people that voted against the referendum in ’78 are now 30 years older and they will be looking for senior housing downtown

Jim: It is now deciding who goes left or right in Hell! That is where the impediment took place. Everyone else, including the mayor, said that is where we are going to do

David: To complete the history: what was built was Elm Court One, on Elm Rd

Hendricks: Now we have a bussing system that will bring ‘em in

Kristin: We need a better system of transportation… Jim: We sure do

David: Perhaps we can answer collectively the question that Kristin raised: Does a Parking Authority sound like a quasi-governmental structure that should be pursued in order to address housing issues, given that there is a housing authority, a non-profit housing developer with a strong track record? All right, there is a consensus of ‘no’. How about transforming PCH into a broader community development corporation, or creating a separate one

Kristin: That has some merit. I haven’t thought of that previously

David: For example, community development corporations often have a broader portfolio that can include economic development. It can include social services efforts

Kristin: There you are tying the housing bringing the housing to the location of where the services would be

Hendricks: And you are looking at it holistically

David: And with a non-profit Barrie: But who are you reporting to? That’s the issue

David: That’s a question

Barrie: Mr. Hillier, to use real examples, came in and wanted to put in on Greenview Avenue a very large structure. It violated all zoning guidelines by factors of 2. If he could go to an authority, they might say: “That would be a good place to put buildings!” Would it still be constrained by zoning

David: Absolutely

Jim: Absolutely

Barrie: One would hope so

David: A community development corporation… Barrie: Who makes the decision about land use? That is really the issue

David: The land use decision structure does not change at all

Jim: Not at all

David: With the types of organizational structures we have been talking about, to be the developer, owner, operator so that the governing body still creates, amends the zoning ordinances. The Regional Planning Board still does Master Plans. That doesn’t change. The Board of Adjustment still exists to address variances. No change at all. But rather, what would be different, an entity such as PCH would have an idea it wants to do more housing. That’s mission. So it looks for a site. Or a site becomes available. That’s what happened as the genesis of Elm Court 2. There was an adjacent property owner. There was the possibility of subdividing it. To create enough land to do part of the housing. So the question is: Would it be helpful to have a broader organization such as a socalled community development corporation that could do housing plus? And you raise a very good question: “How would it decide what to do?” It would decide. As a non-profit, it is a corporation. Its board of directors decides what to do within the limitations of its ability, financial, political and everything else

Miguel: I am sorry, excuse my ignorance, Princeton Community Housing..is it an authority

David: No. PCH is a non-profit. It has, in terms of corporate structure, separate incorporations for each of its residential projects

Miguel: And its major goal is housing, or…affordable housing

David: Housing and affordable housing

Miguel: My only concern with creating a larger body is that…I think it is imperative, particularly these days, to have some authority in Princeton whose major goal is the affordability issue. If you create a broad one whose responsibility is housing, it will probably become a lot easier to create non-affordable housing, than to create housing that is affordable. So I would be very concerned about removing a mission from an organization that is part of government that had the word ‘affordability’ in it. To create an aggregate who could say “We’ve been successful”..but all of it was in the $700,000 range

Alan: And all based on taxpayer money. You are talking about out of the private sector into the public sector…

Jim: Which has been successful. In the area you are talking about we are second to none. We maneuvered through both municipalities and there is a wonderful unit down there. I am not certain what the negative impact of PCH, as we know it, has been on the community. That is a proven entity. If you want to put caveats on it. I think that can be done. A sense of input and sharing. And I agree with that. Were it not for PCH we would indeed be that golden ghetto and many of the people working at the university would still be riding the buses from Trenton…and at the hospital. Then we get into this mobility… Barrie: PCH can target the occupant based on income level

David: It must. That is their mandate. Most are below 80% of median income in Mercer County

Barrie: If there is a mandate for the entity, it can still create affordable housing by the definition of the state. But what Princeton lacks is the bit that goes between affordable housing and unaffordable housing

David: Let’s call it middle income

Sheldon: For the teachers… Barrie: Lower middle income, if you like. That is one of the key problem areas in Princeton. Reserving or generating middle income housing that can serve another part of the population that wants to wok here

Alan: The financing for which would be derived how

David: That is part of the challenge. It is a real challenge

Alan: We are talking about creating more affordable or middle income housing which adds to the property tax base. Which leads full circle to a golden ghetto-ization locally. Understand where the money is coming from. That is the task

Ron: We talk about this feel-good thing, but nobody talks about how we are going to pay for it

Alan: While we seniors move to Bucks County

Sheldon: I think Miguel asked the first right question. Is there a need and in what groups? How do we find that out? The thing that worries me is this tendency to senior overlay housing which is basically an affront to young families. This country was grown on a commitment to public education for everybody. When you start allowing housing that is only for people without kids, it is not a good thing. It hurts our schools. It hurts the community. So we need to have places where the 30-40 year olds with kids can live in this town, whether they are with university or not. So finding out what the need is. I know Fran is particularly focused on the age-in-placers, the people who have lived here. It will be a fight to keep this community the way it has been. There has been the Italian American community. There has been the African American community. They have been the workforce for the community. The people that own those homes are not able to keep them because of the property tax. They are moving out. So we are getting this golden town. The first is an information question: Is there a need. I suspect anecdotally that there is a great need. And then the question is: How many? What is that? Is it 500 units in the next decade? Is it 1000 units? Could they be COAH and what I would call ‘nonmarket’… in other words places for teachers and firemen and young families and retired faculty, the age-in-placers, creative people etc. If we are a community without teachers, without firemen, without our elderly without our young families, without our workforce, we are not much of a community. So we need to worry about that. The second thing I always get is: “There is no land for affordable housing.” I would submit that, maybe at this one moment, there is some land. With our public works moving to River Road?…maybe a site of one of the firehouses? I think there is land and there places in the Boro and the Township where we could build 5-600 units without too much commotion…without going over any existing height limits. Not going up 12 stories. That is very inflammatory in this town. Nothing over 5 stories. 65 ft. We could work out a formula. In the Downtown, private owners could get a subsidy if they built 50-50 market vs non-market

Ron: Who is going to pay for the subsidy

David: The subsidy comes in the form of the increased density. An increase in land value. So if you build more units up to 5 stories, for example, the private sector can sell… Sheldon: And we can solve their parking problem by…in other words, right now Community Liquors is a one-story site. People are hovering over it. They want to buy it for a lot of money. There is a parking restriction. They have to have so many parking spots within so many feet of the front door. Solving the parking regulation and changing the FAR to allow certain things so that they could build might be a good thing IF there was inclusion. If there were affordable units

Kristin: What you are saying…what I always hear: “I have to move out of town because I can’t pay the taxes.” That’s usually when we talk about senior housing. Doesn’t it go back to what David said in the beginning: 56% of the homes are single-family detached homes. From what I know, seeing my grandparents, they don’t want to have their singlefamily detached home with 4 bedrooms. They want something smaller, more convenient to services…

Sheldon: They’d like to move in town

Kristin: To say you have to move out of town because of taxes. That’s just an element of it. The question is: Do we have the right type of housing in this community to meet the needs of multiple populations and I don’t have the answer to that.

Sheldon: Right

Barrie: We can build the right type of housing. The purpose of my question about community housing previously, is that the next group of people buying become sort of preemptive again. Whether we think of Princeton as a steady state community and we want to preserve a certain mix …or whether it is going to be a growing community…are we going to build up another 4 stories…change the Floor Area Ratio problems. It is a non-trivial point I think! I think the challenge of civilization on this planet earth is really how do deal with the issue of steady state. That is really the challenge. We all have the growth model and that is a lousy model. Unless you have lots of land

Sheldon: It is a moral issue

David: The question we were not asked this morning is a question perhaps we should have been starting with: What are our housing needs

Barrie: It depends on how we define it

David: That is true. There a variety of housing needs. I think we would all agree that diversity, choice, income mix, age mix, Barrie: Age mix is terribly important to the quality of life in this town

Jim: So is diversity terribly important

David: All of those things are part of the choice. So more diversity, more choice and how does that add up to our existing housing stock? And the pipeline of housing stock. There is not of housing pipeline stock. It isprett close to steady state. Here is just a few more facts: During this decade 35 new dwelling units have been completed in the Boro. In the Twp, 426

Hendricks: Let me ask my question then: How does redevelopment fit in to this? We all buy into the premise that Princetons are built out. At least the Boro. How does redevelopment…a forward-looking community would look at the resources it has and the resources that are coming on and figure out how can we enhance this for the future. Could the redevelopment of some areas provide us the opportunity to address all of those positives you mention for people who are currently here and for people we need and want to be here! I see this in a place like the Netherlands all the time. They build housing as they need it. One day there is a block of houses people have been living in that has gotten to a certain state of age. They build some housing over here, still within the context. Within the confines, they move people around. People agree to do it because they are getting better housing. They may even be getting the opportunity to buy a house. Then they knock down the other part which might not have as much value as what can get created there. So I think that has to be a part of the conversation, too. Are there areas, if we get down and do some work, do some reflecting together, might be redeveloped. Again, not talking about 12 story buildings but I am talking about models that could work: our conception of what Princeton should be

David: Yes, redevelopment takes place spontaneously when the value of the land is higher than the structure on it and if it is allowed in land use regulations. That is private redevelopment. Secondly, public redevelopment takes place when public bodies, in this the Boro, decide that it is an important thing to pursue. That is what happened where we sit today, an example of public redevelopment. I think, yes, for built-up and built-out communities, redevelopment is the wave of the future. That is how the issues of variety and choice will be addressed. The tear-down phenomenon is an example of private redevelopment that mercifully has slowed down across the state

Barrie: In a scale that works. But if you look at European cities post WWII and look at the effects on the communities that lived in certain parts of London, that were then shifted somewhere else. Much better stuff than was built here, but they didn’t understand the social interaction that the shift in environment had. They destroyed communities

David: Sure

Barrie: I think that that is a real fear in a town with a lot of historic relationships

David: That is why there is great concern. The existing governmental structures do a pretty good job of slowing down things

Barrie: With private redevelopment, then, we are afraid of gentrification. We complain about the Hillier on Quarry St for 2 reasons: A. because many of us don’t like what it looks like and B. it has moved into a different [inaudible], it is 2 $800,000 things where there was one… Ron: When the reassessment comes, the others homes on that street will get hit

Hendricks: If I had the opportunity to redevelop into something that was better and that I owned…and could afford to own, I would go for it

Ron: It ain’t going to happen without a subsidy

Hendricks: Sure, it won’t

Jim: You have to start with people. The people that are here

David: OK. Thank you all

End of session